E15 Fuel

[AirTool]

Someone needs to tell the EPA that ethanol is for drinking...not for engines.

Those corn lobby folks are trying to rule the world.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB2000...347674418.html

[bobchris]

RE: E15 Fuel

been running ethnaol in my mowers for over twenty years and it still runs like new on the stuff... what's the problem???? NOTHING.... other than a bunch of oil guys crying like babies because there piece of the pie got smaller. please give it a break all ready

[OKWAKEBDR]

RE: E15 Fuel

There aren't any "oil guys" are crying, believe me. Ethanol is not taking any market share away from oil. Ethanol is a very small piece of the energy pie, and the pie is very big. It is less than 3% of the entire gasoline pool. Since demand for oil has typically risen faster than that, I don't think there's a problem.

So, now let's talk energy content. A 10% ethanol blend has 3.3% less energy content than conventional gasoline. That would mean that at $3 gasoline, an ethanol blend would need to be at least $.10/gallon cheaper just to break even. E85 is 74% ethanol and has 24.7% less energy content than conventional gasoline. So, at $3 gasoline, E85 would need to be $.74/gallon cheaper. All of this is before any repair costs caused by using the stuff in engines that were not designed for it. Which leads me to my next point...

If the company that actually designed and built my engine (i.e. PCM), specifically says do NOT use ethanol in this vehicle, I'm probably going to take their advice. A $400 LAWN mower is a little bit different than my $60,000 boat. I do not know a whole lot about engines, so I will not discuss the effects of ethanol on the long-term viability of the engine more so than that.

On to the next point...the social aspect of turning a food product into something we burn in our engines. Mexico actually had to put a cap on the price of corn tortillas a couple years ago because the corn had become so scarce. Are the economically advanced countries really THAT selfish that we would rather burn the corn in our vehicles than let other people eat it. Economically speaking, the $.10/gallon that is being saved at the fuel pump is being given right back at the grocery store. There is really no economic savings. Oil and Natural Gas, on the other hand, have no other real purpose other than energy generation.

In Colorado, where I live, all of this really doesn't matter because there is no such thing as a non-ethanol gas station. I just have to add fuel treatment to every single tank of gas that I put in my boat (per PCM's recommendation). So, there went my $.10/gallon savings.

The truth is, we are going to need a substantial amount of energy generation over the next 40 years, and we are going to need to create that in just about any way that we can (wind, solar, hydro, nuclear). I just think there are lot better ways to do it than ethanol and other food related biofuels. In my opinion, Natural Gas is the more appropriate answer currently, especially as a bridge fuel to renewables.

Rant over.

[bobchris]

RE: E15 Fuel

well if your convinced that ethanol is only made from corn grain then your really not up to speed, there are far better means to produce it, now is the main stream using those? yes in a limited bases but most currently use corn grain for production. I would much rather it be used here than shipped over sea's for pennies on the dollar because some other country can't product the food it needs to survive.

guess PCM know more than all the other manufacuter's guess they don't want to change hose materials or upgrade the fuel cell to live in todays world, e10, e15 has no effect on the engine it's self, now if they use cheap china supplied hose's and some other components then you might have issue, but haven't seen any issue running it in all of my cars for the last thirty years or any internal combustion device I own.

So it packs a little less punch than regular gas but isn't worth it to have cleaner air? and even though you might use a tad more your still going to polute the air less than if you used straight gas and a slightly lesser amount.

electric cars will be the next big push anyway...you need to keep up on battery technolorgy as that has been the only thing holding them back for the last 15 years

[OKWAKEBDR]

RE: E15 Fuel

Yes, ethanol can be made from quite a few different sources. Switchgrass is probably the best option. It is produced on land that otherwise is unproductive, but unfortunately, it they haven't yet learned how to produce it efficiently enough to make it economic. Sugarcane is another viable option. Remember, ethanol is basically uneconomic without the government subsidies and tax credits. Your comment regarding other country's not being able to produce the food it needs is extremely selfish, and I don't feel it needs comment.

As I said previously, I don't know much about engines, but I would assume that the manufacturers can design the engines to compensate for the ethanol. That doesn't help me much with my 2005 model boat though does it?

In 1999, ethanol made up less than 1% of the total gasoline pool, and only 35.7MM barrels were produced, so unless you have been refining it yourself, I highly doubt you were burning very much of it 30 years ago.

If carbon polutions are your concern, did you know that it takes 1.29 gallons of gasoline to make 1 gallon of ethanol? This is because of the gasoline used in the farm tractors, transportation vehicles use to move the feed stock, energy used by the ethanol refinery, and most significantly, in the manufacturing of nitrogen fertilizers.

Regarding electric cars, again, I'm all for it. Epic Wake Boats came out with their 23E about a year ago...a battery powered wakeboat capable of moving 4k lbs of ballast. However, where is the energy going to be generated to charge those batteries? Coal fired plants? Now you're really talking about carbon emissions.

Again, I'm all for increasing energy efficiency, and alternatives to importing foreign oil, and keeping the environment clean, I just believe there are a lot better ways to do it. Natural Gas seems to meet these requirements, as it is domestic, affordable, abundant, efficient, and the cleanest burning fossill fuel by far. (It could be used to a much greater extent to generate the electricity to charge those electric batteries you're talking about.)

[bobchris]

RE: E15 Fuel

10% ethanol has been in Indiana's gas supply since the early 80's.

the engine has no issue using the ethanol it's the hoses and tanks that have trouble with it.

but oh well to each there own

[MARK-S]

RE: E15 Fuel

We have plenty of energy. OIL OIL OIL. More then the planet will ever use. Coal Coal Coal. More then we can burn. Someone needs to shut down that meeting in Denmark and arrest all those climate change wackos. PUT THEM (and there private jets/limos) BEHIND BARS. Lets find a new energy source if you want to, but until you do, dont send the USA to extinction.

[bobchris]

Re: RE: E15 Fuel

We have plenty of energy. OIL OIL OIL. More then the planet will ever use. Coal Coal Coal. More then we can burn. .

please your just a fool if you believe that.. maybe enough to last your life time but what about my child's lifetime and the generation after that not going to cut it and it's not going to last either. Guess you feel it's all right for the tax burden oh****it is laying on the kids is ok too.

[mf01]

RE: Re: RE: E15 Fuel

While the topic has come up, I just noticed all the gas stations around me with the 10% Ethanol stickers. Does E10 or E15 have any adverse effects on the older plastic fuel tanks?

[MARK-S]

RE: Re: RE: E15 Fuel

If you think there is a tax burden on your kids now, just wait until we pay for this nonsense. They will not recoup.
Whatever happened to the ice age? How far back do our records go? There is no glbl warming, just climate change that has been going on since day 1.
You are a fool if you believe anything else.

[WakeSlayer]

RE: Re: RE: E15 Fuel

Oh boy.

(grabs bag of popcorn and sits down to watch)

[AirTool]

RE: Re: RE: E15 Fuel

been running ethnaol in my mowers for over twenty years and it still runs like new on the stuff... what's the problem???? NOTHING.... other than a bunch of oil guys crying like babies because there piece of the pie got smaller. please give it a break all ready

In 2-stroke engines, ethanol lightens the oil and washes the oil from the piston rings. I've seen pistons destroyed because of this. "Pre-mixed" survive because they are over oiled. Older oil injected models with lower grade pistons, rings, and cylinders don't fare as well.

...Oil and Natural Gas, on the other hand, have no other real purpose other than energy generation. ...

Most plastics start from a rich natural gas feedstock or LPG products. Asphalt and other heavies come from oil.

10% ethanol has been in Indiana's gas supply since the early 80's.
the engine has no issue using the ethanol it's the hoses and tanks that have trouble with it.

How much corn is grown there?

While the topic has come up, I just noticed all the gas stations around me with the 10% Ethanol stickers. Does E10 or E15 have any adverse effects on the older plastic fuel tanks?

Possibly. No offense...but, most "cheap" plastics and elastomers are not resistant to alcohols. Typically, manufacturers and engineers chose the cheapest product that meets the spec. Now that the spec is changing, the designs are too. Older designs may not fare well.

[SkiTower]

Re: RE: E15 Fuel

oh****it

LOVE IT! Yellow_Flash_Colorz:

[bobchris]

Re: RE: Re: RE: E15 Fuel

If you think there is a tax burden on your kids now, just wait until we pay for this nonsense. They will not recoup.
Whatever happened to the ice age? How far back do our records go? There is no glbl warming, just climate change that has been going on since day 1.
You are a fool if you believe anything else.

i agree with you on the climate change scientific evidence has proven that. But oil is from what Dinosours that died millions of years ago? wheren't there only so many of them to start with? didn't they vanish from the face of the earth? well decaded and begame oil might be better. so yes i would say there is a limited supply of oil.

[MARK-S]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: E15 Fuel

Its not from Dinosours its from decay. Yes it is limited, but until we can get cheap clean energy, we need to use what we have. Set goals, work towards a solution, but do not bankrupt the country trying.