Nautique Releases G23 Paragon

[Bevostein]

Well said. Your college buddy and I may be early adopters...haven't decided yet.

Cool. I am going to be at his house here in Dallas for an event tonight and was planning to talk Paragon with him. The next best thing to being able to afford a Paragon is having friends that can. LOL

[scottb7]

Nautique had to ramp up volume when g23 first came out. Why couldn't they do that again. Couldn't they have simply tweaked the lines and hull like they did for the paragon, and done the same (ramp up of volume again). Then as you said supply would go down and price would go up as they ramped up once again.

And yeah, they could also have done as suggested above somewhere, a paragon trim package.

Time will tell if they are brilliant and the paragon is analogous to the ford gt. Which to my way of thinking is fine if they would have done a signficant g-series refresh a year or two ago...

[greggmck]

Nautique had to ramp up volume when g23 first came out. Why couldn't they do that again. Couldn't they have simply tweaked the lines and hull like they did for the paragon, and done the same (ramp up of volume again). Then as you said supply would go down and price would go up as they ramped up once again.

And yeah, they could also have done as suggested above somewhere, a paragon trim package.

Time will tell if they are brilliant and the paragon is analogous to the ford gt. Which to my way of thinking is fine if they would have done a signficant g-series refresh a year or two ago...

Agree, an extensive G refresh would have been great for us consumers. But remember Nautique is selling EVERY G23 they can build. I think we all agree they are making profit based business decisions, some might even say greedy ones. E.g. $10,000 thruster. $9K stereo upgrades. We don't like that. But repeat after me... "They are selling every new G23 they can build". G23 demand is not a problem so they are unlikely to do things that increase G23 demand.

[Rbt]

Let's do a thought exercise to see how Nautique could have gone to market differently with the Paragon and even though many of us don't like it, they probably made the right business decision.

Presume that Nautique invested in updating the entire G23 production line to make the full switch over to producing Paragons at the volume necessary to meet current G23 demand. That would mean retraining the entire workforce and modifying the production line to meet the needs of building the new boat (new molds, higher capacity cranes, etc.) The COSTS for the new G23 replacement would obviously increase. How much greater would the costs for the new boat be? Upgraded upholstery, more complex larger hull manufacturing costs, dual screens and associated software development costs, new powered tower, new rear flip-up seats, new stereo, larger NSS system, XR7 engine?

My conservative guess is that the increased manufacturing costs for the new Paragon could be at least $20,000 over the current G23. Since Nautique probably have a gross margin of about 50% on G23s the MSRP increase from the additional COSTS of the Paragon G23 replacement would be about $40,000 higher. Now add an increase to MSRP for the XR7 engine at $12,791. The new MSRP increase for the G23 replacement Paragon would be about $40,000 + $12,791 = $52,791. Let's just call it $53,000 higher

So instead of having an MSRP of $166K for the current 2020 G23 the new Paragon G23 replacement would have an MSRP of about $219K.

Furthermore, everyone would have to switch to Premium fuel (the XR7 engine REQUIRES Premium), those that trailer would have to switch to a triple axle trailer ($10K vs. $7K) and many would need a new tow rig. Fuel consumption for the H6Di is about 6.5 Gal/hour. Fuel consumption for the XR7 is about 12 GPH. Add the additional cost of premium fuel and the XR7 fuel burn rate and my annual fuel bill goes from $8,300 to about $16,000+. Oh yea, Premium fuel is not available on my lake and I don't own a trailer because I keep my boat at the lake on a lift.

Still feeling like current G23 owners are getting screwed? Not me.

You talk about retooling and new training to make a new boat, isn’t that what every manufacturer does all the time? They seem to do it. Malibu’s 23 and 25 lsv are new boats within the last year or so, they figured it out. In a lot of people’s opinion the g23 is dated. Yes it’s a great boat that is still near the top of the competition. Does that mean they sit back and let the competition pass them up? If the paragon is too big for some people and requires premium fuel then maybe Nautique missed their mark on building a new boat?

[scottb7]

Agree, an extensive G refresh would have been great for us consumers. But remember Nautique is selling EVERY G23 they can build. I think we all agree they are making profit based business decisions, some might even say greedy ones. E.g. $10,000 thruster. $9K stereo upgrades. We don't like that. But repeat after me... "They are selling every new G23 they can build". G23 demand is not a problem so they are unlikely to do things that increase G23 demand.

Yeah, you been making that point repeatedly. But the point i and others are making is that to "maintain" demand they need to give more consideration to current owners and keeping the g-series fresh. Not to "increase" demand.

But yeah, it's their risk/reward. We'll see what happens. Good fun.

[greggmck]

You talk about retooling and new training to make a new boat, isn’t that what every manufacturer does all the time? They seem to do it. Malibu’s 23 and 25 lsv are new boats within the last year or so, they figured it out. In a lot of people’s opinion the g23 is dated. Yes it’s a great boat that is still near the top of the competition. Does that mean they sit back and let the competition pass them up? If the paragon is too big for some people and requires premium fuel then maybe Nautique missed their mark on building a new boat?

I talk about it not because it cannot be done but because it adds cost and risk. The Paragon is a risky and costly new product. If it is your company do you make such a bet? To completely transition a sold out and very profitable product line to a new, more costly and unproven model? Yes, some companies successfully do this but some companies lose lots of money doing this too. Hindsight is 2020, remember they would have had to make this decision long ago... My take is Nautique being a private company (all the owners get to keep all the profits) is being conservative on the Paragon release (understandable) and maximizing profit as long as demand for the G matches or exceeds manufacturing capacity. I may not like it but I do understand what they are doing.

Food for thought...I wonder how many people complaining about the price of the Paragon will sell their used G for less than the maximum they can get for it because they want to satisfy the purchaser? Nautique is simply doing with we all do, trying to maximize the price of what we sell.

[Kenv]

And another thing....Nautique could offer the 450 in the Paragon/G23/refresh to eliminate the premium fuel issue some are pointing out.

[greggmck]

And another thing....Nautique could offer the 450 in the Paragon/G23/refresh to eliminate the premium fuel issue some are pointing out.

I hope so. That would probably make me a buyer (after I demo the wave). Nautique may initially only offer the XR7 to help justify the price, manage volumes and increase profit, at least until the Paragon is a proven success. Then they could reduce the cost (lower priced engines) to make more of us Paragon customers.

[NautiqueJeff]

Thought you guys might want to see a few more pictures.

[Rbt]

Any word on why they moved the batteries to the port storage? It probably helps with weighting the port side but I wonder if there is another reason?

[NautiqueJeff]

They put two of the three batteries there, mostly to counter prop rotation I understand.

[Tallredrider]

And another thing....Nautique could offer the 450 in the Paragon/G23/refresh to eliminate the premium fuel issue some are pointing out.

Could the 450 pull the extra weight? I don't think it could at my 2700 feet elevation.

About the price...Nobody has mentioned that the MSRP might be totally inflated. There are R and D and manufacturing costs that cannot be measured, but the hard costs of the boat itself are just a bunch of extra fiberglass, a few actuators and retooling the rear storage compartment. And an extra screen.

What would happen if you mocked up your 2020 G23 for X dollars, and the dealer says: "But for X+ 35K I can give you a smoking deal on this new Paragon"? Mr. Wayward might change his mind, as would a lot of others. Those R and D costs then come down substantially when shared over a greater number of units. I am just speculating, but it would not surprise me if the MSRP is inflated to make a person think they are getting a great deal on it.

[nautiquegeek]

Could the 450 pull the extra weight? I don't think it could at my 2700 feet elevation.

About the price...Nobody has mentioned that the MSRP might be totally inflated. There are R and D and manufacturing costs that cannot be measured, but the hard costs of the boat itself are just a bunch of extra fiberglass, a few actuators and retooling the rear storage compartment. And an extra screen.

What would happen if you mocked up your 2020 G23 for X dollars, and the dealer says: "But for X+ 35K I can give you a smoking deal on this new Paragon"? Mr. Wayward might change his mind, as would a lot of others. Those R and D costs then come down substantially when shared over a greater number of units. I am just speculating, but it would not surprise me if the MSRP is inflated to make a person think they are getting a great deal on it.

I hope so. That would probably make me a buyer (after I demo the wave). Nautique may initially only offer the XR7 to help justify the price, manage volumes and increase profit, at least until the Paragon is a proven success. Then they could reduce the cost (lower priced engines) to make more of us Paragon customers.

I hope you get one! All I have to say is, you will LOVE as it and it is an incredible boat in every way.

With a base dry weight of 7400lbs I can confidently say Nautique/PCM probably felt the 550hp XR7 was the best fit for overall applicability and performance for the hull design and heft of the new boat. The ZZ6 is a great engine in so many ways but wouldn't be a viable option in the P23. Keep in mind, most dealers will not option the ZZ6 in current G23 models that will be used in elevation above 4000 feet unless the primary use of the boat is specifically surfing. As surfing doesn't require pulling a rider up to wakeboard/planing speeds. This is verified by take rates by specific dealers located in higher elevations. As you already know the dry weight of the current G23 is 1500lbs less than a P23. The release of the 7.4l 500hp ZR7 would be a better fit as an entry level engine for the Paragon if an option was ever to come to fruition.

It's no secret and anyone who has frequented these forums knows how much the price of a new boat can vary from MSRP. I would urge anyone on here to contact their local dealer for more information on pricing on the new P23. As much as Nautique wants dealers to stock a new G23 Paragon, the dealers want to sell one even more.

[Wayward]

Tallredrider - If it was 35k more, it would have certainly put me into a position to think about it. I did already price it though, and unfortunately it was $71,430 more

[greggmck]

Let's not conflate the issue of elevation on engine choice for the Paragon.
If one needs the XR7 because of elevation in the current G23 you will certainly need the XR7 in the Paragon at elevation too.

But the question of whether the ZZ6/H6Di is a suitable choice for the Paragon at sea level is another separate issue. Here is what I see:

Paragon dry weight - 7400 lbs. Ballast 2200 lbs. Total weight less people and fuel = 9600 lbs.
G23 dry weight - 5900 lbs. Ballast 2850 lbs. Lead weight on my G is 800 lbs. Total weight less people and fuel on my G = 9550 lbs.

The weight of the Paragon is 50 lbs greater than the surf weight of my G23. My current G23 runs great with the H6Di and I don't think 50 lbs will change that.
The only other unknown that I can think of is the larger NSS plate on the Paragon and the increased drag it generates.
That may be the only technical factor to disqualify the ZZ6 from the Paragon.