Nautique Releases G23 Paragon

[GMLIII]

Both of you guys, Greggmck and Wayward make some excellent points on the Paragon

[Wayward]

“All comments about the high price and lack of value I think are missing the point.” Yeah, no. Those people that made that point are not missing the point any more or less then you with your own opinion.

“just because the “business” can do something, doesn’t always necessarily mean they should.” I very much agree. It does not appear to me that nautique choose to show any restraint or do a darn thing for current g-series owners.

“I think what Nautique did was reasonable.” They had the right to do it. But it would have been imho more reasonable to more effort to put the resources into the renewal of the g23.

Ya, that’s the same as I feel about it.


I sort of look at it this way- I’m not “F-you money” rich by any means. However, I have the means needed to buy the flagship models of these boats, and that’s what I do. I have a problem resisting the urge to want the latest and greatest (It’s a problem). Even little features cause me to upgrade on a yearly basis.

I was very interested in what was coming. I have had my fingers crossed for months, and I am one of the types of customers that Nautique was directly targeting with this boat. Now it’s here, and they definitely missed the mark with me. I’m not going to be a paragon owner, and I won’t be switching back to a G either, because it hasn’t changed, and it just feels incredibly dated now.

i think that is why I have the opinion that I do. It’s my feelings on the matter (which align with my many friends that also own Nautiques). My whole crew bleeds Nautique, I’m the only one in a different brand right now........and two of them were also looking to upgrade, but aren’t going to now. They wanted a G redesign to upgrade from their 2014 and 2017. One is going to keep his boat, and the other is going to an X22.

They all like the new boat, but wanted it to be the new G, and at a competitive price for the market.

[Kenv]

Wayward...EXACTLY. I was just thinking the exact same thing. And I mean this seriously. I watched a video of the 2020 Regular G23 and it made me feel cheated. I'm in the market for a new boat also .....was going to trade my 21 in on a 23...this winter....but now I'm stuck. I could afford the Paragon - on a stretch....but don't really need 300k wavemaker as a 54 year old surfer....LOL. My kids saw it and LOVED it...even in the green. But God....do I get a 2020 G and pretend I'm happy???

[greggmck]

...Or another example is what ford has done with the GT. Ford more than doubled price on the car, and then limited the production on the car, and it didn’t end up coming close to the production limit. It’s a great example of this strategy. Ford even tried to drag out release, and make it seem more exclusive, as well as doing everything possible to make it seem like it was under super high demand.......


While I UNDERSTAND what Nautique is doing as a business, as a CONSUMER I don't like it one bit. I have been very vocal about how I think the G23 needs to be upgraded and not for another $65K. Yes, the price of my 2019 compared to the sale price I would pay for my configured Paragon is about $65K. That said, I understand what Nautique has done because THEY ARE SELLING EVERY G23 they can build. And if the Gs are so old, outdated and out classed by the competition, then we should stop buying them. If this happens Nautique will almost certainly respond appropriately. But we all know that is NOT going to happen. While we all (me included) complain about the need for improvement of the G23 it is still the best boat for me and that is why a G23 is on my lift. And most complaining about the price would probably be doing the same thing if it was their company... Nautique is not a charity and while I don't like it I do understand what they are doing.

Oh yea, the comment about the Ford GT is nonsense. This is a car that I know much about. The original production run volume was for 500 units for the entire five years the Ford GT was planned to be manufactured - 2017 to 2022. Ford received 7,000 qualified purchase orders the first year the car was available. When new, the car sold for nearly $600K. The first one sold by a private owner (who each had to sign an agreement that they would not sell the car for two years) went for $1.54M last week at Barrett Jackson. Yea, it was a complete failure...

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/ford-gt...ly/2100005944/
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ear-agreement/

[cwglee]

Sorry I don't really understand what they are doing.
You have arguably the most well regarded wake boat on the market (G23) and an ownership base built over 8 years on that model. They are clamoring for a re-design of the boat creating a ripe opportunity to again blow minds of all current owners and prospective buyers. Rather than targeting that opportunity to turn over a huge owner base into a newer boat they come up with a "next level" boat which has a lot of upgrades the current G owners would have loved to see in a newer model but without the "next level" (utterly ridiculous Pavati like) price tag. It feels like it's a high risk to alienate current owners. Its saying the 150-200k you spent on your then top of the line boat isn't good enough anymore to give our attention to continue to upgrade that model with the options you want to see.

[greggmck]

Sorry I don't really understand what they are doing.
You have arguably the most well regarded wake boat on the market (G23) and an ownership base built over 8 years on that model. They are clamoring for a re-design of the boat creating a ripe opportunity to again blow minds of all current owners and prospective buyers. Rather than targeting that opportunity to turn over a huge owner base into a newer boat they come up with a "next level" boat which has a lot of upgrades the current G owners would have loved to see in a newer model but without the "next level" (utterly ridiculous Pavati like) price tag. It feels like it's a high risk to alienate current owners. Its saying the 150-200k you spent on your then top of the line boat isn't good enough anymore to give our attention to continue to upgrade that model with the options you want to see.

Altruistically you have a point. But there are manufacturing realities to consider. Nautique cannot magically switch from making about 1000 G23 per year to making 1000 Paragons. So they price the new boat high to reduce demand until they can increase volume. This is done in many industries. And if demand for the Paragon is soft its price will fall. That's basic supply and demand.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Wayward]

greggmck - Original production goal was 365 units/year, for 6 years of production. Nearly 7000 qualified applications are not “purchase orders”. More than 70% backed out once pricing was released. So, then Ford released low production estimates and announced the restrictions to bolster demand. It worked for the cost, but they won’t reach original production estimates. Kinda my point. But maybe you are right. Maybe it’s not a great example..... at least with the way it ended up going, rather than the original plan.

Either way, I get your view if “If Nautique can do it, they should do it”. They will make more money, sure. They will also lose some business, and unit volume. Oh, and they are not selling every G that they can build..... Not one single person has been denied a build slot within the normal/reasonable allocation time. Dealer inventory is healthy, and actually a little higher than the normal average. Call any dealer today. I bet you can get a G built within 4 months.

[Evening Shade]

I'm gonna say what I think I'm hearing, but no one else is saying in this thread. None of us can believe, that in our lifetime, the day would come when one couldn't afford a damm wakeboard boat with a half a million $ gross income! This isn't the Planet Hatteras Yacht forum.

[Bevostein]

The Paragon is bad to bone. The only knock I have on it is I don't like the lines of the telescoping tower. That said I agree with the comments about current G owners longing for a refresh and Nautique missing the opportunity to turn over a large percentage of those boats. The only good thing I can say is that I was worried that whatever they rolled out would knock the value of my 2019 down. Not so worried about that anymore.

I think Nautique is potentially boxing themselves in. Maybe I am wrong but I think they have priced out a lot of their current G owners. Not all but a lot. So they are going to have a choice to make. Keep the Paragon features at the Paragon level and risk a lot of their G owners transitioning to other "fresher" models as Wayward mentioned OR they migrate the Paragon features down to the G at a better price point and piss off the early adopters because it dilutes the exclusivity of the Paragon. Tough needle to thread....

[greggmck]

greggmck - Original production goal was 365 units/year, for 6 years of production. Nearly 7000 qualified applications are not “purchase orders”. More than 70% backed out once pricing was released. So, then Ford released low production estimates and announced the restrictions to bolster demand. It worked for the cost, but they won’t reach original production estimates. Kinda my point. But maybe you are right. Maybe it’s not a great example..... at least with the way it ended up going, rather than the original plan.

Either way, I get your view if “If Nautique can do it, they should do it”. They will make more money, sure. They will also lose some business, and unit volume. Oh, and they are not selling every G that they can build..... Not one single person has been denied a build slot within the normal/reasonable allocation time. Dealer inventory is healthy, and actually a little higher than the normal average. Call any dealer today. I bet you can get a G built within 4 months.

Look we agree on much about the Paragon. But please let's agree the reference to the Ford GT is not appropriate. I flew to Detroit to preview the Ford GT in 2016. The demand was ENORMOUS. Ford will make over 1,000 cars. At 20% margin the $600,000 car will produce $120M in profit. The fact that they are selling today for $1.5M is ABSOLUTE proof that market demand for the car greatly exceeds supply. By every definition that is also an overwhelming success.

[Rbt]

The Paragon is evolutionary not revolutionary. Everything in that boat should have been in the current 2020 g23. I think the paragon should have been a limited edition trim package. The telescoping tower, the wake subs the flip up rear seats. These things could have been sold as an exclusive Paragon package. The 2020 g23 base boat should be what the paragon is. The dual screens should be on every g23 at this point, I could be mistaken but I think every comparable boat from the competition has dual screens now.

[Wayward]

Look we agree on much about the Paragon. But please let's agree the reference to the Ford GT is not appropriate. I flew to Detroit to preview the Ford GT in 2016. The demand was ENORMOUS. Ford will make over 1,000 cars. At 20% margin the $600,000 car will produce $120M in profit. The fact that they are selling today for $1.5M is ABSOLUTE proof that market demand for the car greatly exceeds supply. By every definition that is also an overwhelming success.

Or it is absolute proof that if you build a limited car, and prevent normal people from buying it for two years, the first few units available will sell for good money. No surprise there.

Not sure why you feel previewing the car in 2016 was worth mentioning. Anybody could preview it at a couple different public venues after January of 2015.

The point of my reference is lost on you, but I’ll just agree and we can move on.

So, does anyone know the ballast pump fill/empty details on the Paragon?

[RDT-G23]

The Paragon is bad to bone. The only knock I have on it is I don't like the lines of the telescoping tower. That said I agree with the comments about current G owners longing for a refresh and Nautique missing the opportunity to turn over a large percentage of those boats. The only good thing I can say is that I was worried that whatever they rolled out would knock the value of my 2019 down. Not so worried about that anymore.

I think Nautique is potentially boxing themselves in. Maybe I am wrong but I think they have priced out a lot of their current G owners. Not all but a lot. So they are going to have a choice to make. Keep the Paragon features at the Paragon level and risk a lot of their G owners transitioning to other "fresher" models as Wayward mentioned OR they migrate the Paragon features down to the G at a better price point and piss off the early adopters because it dilutes the exclusivity of the Paragon. Tough needle to thread....

Well said. Your college buddy and I may be early adopters...haven't decided yet.

[greggmck]

Let's do a thought exercise to see how Nautique could have gone to market differently with the Paragon and even though many of us don't like it, they probably made the right business decision.

Presume that Nautique invested in updating the entire G23 production line to make the full switch over to producing Paragons at the volume necessary to meet current G23 demand. That would mean retraining the entire workforce and modifying the production line to meet the needs of building the new boat (new molds, higher capacity cranes, etc.) The COSTS for the new G23 replacement would obviously increase. How much greater would the costs for the new boat be? Upgraded upholstery, more complex larger hull manufacturing costs, dual screens and associated software development costs, new powered tower, new rear flip-up seats, new stereo, larger NSS system, XR7 engine?

My conservative guess is that the increased manufacturing costs for the new Paragon could be at least $20,000 over the current G23. Since Nautique probably have a gross margin of about 50% on G23s the MSRP increase from the additional COSTS of the Paragon G23 replacement would be about $40,000 higher. Now add an increase to MSRP for the XR7 engine at $12,791. The new MSRP increase for the G23 replacement Paragon would be about $40,000 + $12,791 = $52,791. Let's just call it $53,000 higher

So instead of having an MSRP of $166K for the current 2020 G23 the new Paragon G23 replacement would have an MSRP of about $219K.

Furthermore, everyone would have to switch to Premium fuel (the XR7 engine REQUIRES Premium), those that trailer would have to switch to a triple axle trailer ($10K vs. $7K) and many would need a new tow rig. Fuel consumption for the H6Di is about 6.5 Gal/hour. Fuel consumption for the XR7 is about 12 GPH. Add the additional cost of premium fuel and the XR7 fuel burn rate and my annual fuel bill goes from $8,300 to about $16,000+. Oh yea, Premium fuel is not available on my lake and I don't own a trailer because I keep my boat at the lake on a lift.

Still feeling like current G23 owners are getting screwed? Not me.

[greggmck]

Not sure why you feel previewing the car in 2016 was worth mentioning.

Because I had first hand knowledge that the demand was greater than supply and I prefer not to make **** up...