Nautique Releases G23 Paragon

[greggmck]

They put two of the three batteries there, mostly to counter prop rotation I understand.

This is really great thinking. Now one does not need to add lead to do this and new boat owners don't have to post here how the boat lists to one side...

[greggmck]

Here is my G23agon 800 lb lead augmented wave! The bar is high!

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[nohlan_4]

I think that the performance level for the paragon is a step above the G solely based on the fact that the NSS plate is so much larger and goes higher up the side of the hull. The main problem with the current G is that when too much weight is added especially to the stern the nss is buried too deep into the water and canÂ’t form a proper wave. This paragon is going to have a much higher ceiling for ppl that want to add another 1000lbs of lead to the boat. In general though I have to agree with the above and say that I think a majority of current G23 owners myself included were disappointed at the target audience for this boat when the G has only gotten minor tweaks since inception. I would have liked to see a surf specific boat with the paragon surf system in the G23 price point.....☹️


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[BoatGuy2019]

Tallredrider - If it was 35k more, it would have certainly put me into a position to think about it. I did already price it though, and unfortunately it was $71,430 more

Or the price on a second economy surf bot


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[nautiquegeek]

Let's not conflate the issue of elevation on engine choice for the Paragon.
If one needs the XR7 because of elevation in the current G23 you will certainly need the XR7 in the Paragon at elevation too.

But the question of whether the ZZ6/H6Di is a suitable choice for the Paragon at sea level is another separate issue. Here is what I see:

Paragon dry weight - 7400 lbs. Ballast 2200 lbs. Total weight less people and fuel = 9600 lbs.
G23 dry weight - 5900 lbs. Ballast 2850 lbs. Lead weight on my G is 800 lbs. Total weight less people and fuel on my G = 9550 lbs.

The weight of the Paragon is 50 lbs greater than the surf weight of my G23. My current G23 runs great with the H6Di and I don't think 50 lbs will change that.
The only other unknown that I can think of is the larger NSS plate on the Paragon and the increased drag it generates.
That may be the only technical factor to disqualify the ZZ6 from the Paragon.

You are comparing how your boat runs set up to surf and not taking in to account how the boat will do anything else out on the water. Contrary to what many believe, Nautique isn't just about producing only a "surf boat" and more interested in what makes people's experience on the water the best it can be in more facets than one. They want to build a boat that planes quickly, is reactive, comfortable and has top notch build quality. And of course offering the best wakes, waves and no wakes in the world.

Any boat can surf with little horsepower/torque and a ton or few tons of ballast. Not much is required to pulling up rider and cruising around at 11mph. The advantages the XR7 gives in terms of performance are the minimum Nautique feels fits the needs of the P23 in all areas of being a sports boat.

Nobody will argue that the H6/ZZ6 isn't a great power plant for certain applications. Nautique/PCM feels the optimal engine currently for the P23 would be the XR7 due to the 1500 base dry weight difference. The P23 does have newly designed running surfaces, a higher dry weight and other factors that come in to play in determining minimum horsepower and torque requirements. The XR7 package was chosen to guarantee the best drivability of the boat with or without ballast, towing or just cruising.

If you ever have a chance to meet with any of the engineers at Nautique or PCM I think you would be blown away at the knowledge and passion they have for the product. I am always impressed every time I chat with them. The only bad part is about talking with them I always feel a little bit dumber after a conversation.

[greggmck]

You are comparing how your boat runs set up to surf and not taking in to account how the boat will do anything else out on the water. Contrary to what many believe, Nautique isn't just about producing only a "surf boat" and more interested in what makes people's experience on the water the best it can be in more facets than one. They want to build a boat that planes quickly, is reactive, comfortable and has top notch build quality. And of course offering the best wakes, waves and no wakes in the world.

Any boat can surf with little horsepower/torque and a ton or few tons of ballast. Not much is required to pulling up rider and cruising around at 11mph. The advantages the XR7 gives in terms of performance are the minimum Nautique feels fits the needs of the P23 in all areas of being a sports boat.

Nobody will argue that the H6/ZZ6 isn't a great power plant for certain applications. Nautique/PCM feels the optimal engine currently for the P23 would be the XR7 due to the 1500 base dry weight difference. The P23 does have newly designed running surfaces, a higher dry weight and other factors that come in to play in determining minimum horsepower and torque requirements. The XR7 package was chosen to guarantee the best drivability of the boat with or without ballast, towing or just cruising.

If you ever have a chance to meet with any of the engineers at Nautique or PCM I think you would be blown away at the knowledge and passion they have for the product. I am always impressed every time I chat with them. The only bad part is about talking with them I always feel a little bit dumber after a conversation.

You seem like a nice person and I really enjoy your excitement for Nautique. Thanks for that, it is genuinely refreshing. But your comments raise questions that I have to ask.

So yes I am using my surfing experience, math and the performance of my current and prior 4 G boats to conclude that I have yet to hear a factual reason why the standard ZZ6 (closed cooled variation of the H6Di) cannot be offered in the P23.

Yes I agree that there are other watersport activities to consider. But the last time I checked the base motor in the G23 is a very capable wake board boat. Are you suggesting that my 2019 H6Di G23 is underpowered for wakeboarding?

I believe it can also pull a water skier and tuber too if that is your thing. And many wakeboarders use much greater ballast capacity than I use. Are there references somewhere that suggest the ZZ6/H6Di engines in a G23 are insufficient for these other activities with an additional 800lbs of lead? Because I would speculate that the H6Di and now ZZ6 engines far outsell the ZR7 in both the G23 and heavier G25 and provide ample performance at sea level for just about anything one wants to do on the water in a G, 800 lbs of lead or not.

Finally, I have every bit of respect for the engineers at Nautique. They have done an outstanding job on all of the Nautique family of watercraft. However, I have been a development engineer for decades and I know that engineers do not always have the final say in go to market configurations for new products. It's much more likely that finance or marketing leaders made difficult decisions to limit the engine selection to reduce testing time to allow for an earlier announcement date and that other engine options are forthcoming. Because if the Paragon actually requires the XR7 engine and it will be the only engine offered then I have to conclude that P23 boat volumes will be significantly reduced. Many lake fuel stations lack premium fuel (except at altitude). I'm sure it exists somewhere at sea level but I have never seen premium fuel at a marina. I would also think many with sufficient resources to afford the boat have lake properties and do not want the hassle of trailering such a large boat. So where do they buy premium fuel? Diesel fuel is more generally available than premium fuel in most marinas. In my opinion without additional engine options the future of the P23 appears very uncertain.

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[MikeC]

This has been very entertaining reading. I remember when a new Ski Nautique listed for $25,000 and I couldn’t understand how anyone could spend that kind of money on a boat, now they’re close to $125,000. I also remember thinking that I’d never spend more on a boat than I did on my first home - but I did. So now we’re entering new territory and apparently everyone here is worried about whether Nautique did their market research. I’m sure they have, let us not forget there are people buying $1,000,000 lake houses, tearing them down and building $2,000,000 lake houses.
The common complaints I see here are:
1) The G series of boats are getting old and need to be refreshed - legitimate complaint that hopefully the factory is already working on
2) The P23 is priced way to high for most of us to buy - so be it, if you can’t afford it don’t buy it. I don’t see everyone running to the Ferrari dealership and complaining that their new model is too pricey for most of us.
3) There seems to be some worry that Nautique has missed the mark - only time will determine this, but I’m sure they have a plan.
So my question is, why is everyone so worried about the P23? They’ve done a beautiful job of design and packaging, I think we should enjoy what they’ve done and thank Nautique for continuing to design innovative and good looking products - not every manufacturer does that. (Malibu still has the wedge and surfgate don’t they?)

[DocPhil]

Am I the only G23 owner that doesn't feel "cheated"? Actually I feel like a I got a smoking deal on my boat compared to the P23. Does it have some nice features? Sure. Anything I can't live without? Nope!

In the end, the purpose of these boats is the same as the triple cheeseburger. Sell more doubles.

[nautiquegeek]

You seem like a nice person and I really enjoy your excitement for Nautique. Thanks for that, it is genuinely refreshing. But your comments raise questions that I have to ask.

So yes I am using my surfing experience, math and the performance of my current and prior 4 G boats to conclude that I have yet to hear a factual reason why the standard ZZ6 (closed cooled variation of the H6Di) cannot be offered in the P23.

Yes I agree that there are other watersport activities to consider. But the last time I checked the base motor in the G23 is a very capable wake board boat. Are you suggesting that my 2019 H6Di G23 is underpowered for wakeboarding?

I believe it can also pull a water skier and tuber too if that is your thing. And many wakeboarders use much greater ballast capacity than I use. Are there references somewhere that suggest the ZZ6/H6Di engines in a G23 are insufficient for these other activities with an additional 800lbs of lead? Because I would speculate that the H6Di and now ZZ6 engines far outsell the ZR7 in both the G23 and heavier G25 and provide ample performance at sea level for just about anything one wants to do on the water in a G, 800 lbs of lead or not.

Finally, I have every bit of respect for the engineers at Nautique. They have done an outstanding job on all of the Nautique family of watercraft. However, I have been a development engineer for decades and I know that engineers do not always have the final say in go to market configurations for new products. It's much more likely that finance or marketing leaders made difficult decisions to limit the engine selection to reduce testing time to allow for an earlier announcement date and that other engine options are forthcoming. Because if the Paragon actually requires the XR7 engine and it will be the only engine offered then I have to conclude that P23 boat volumes will be significantly reduced. Many lake fuel stations lack premium fuel (except at altitude). I'm sure it exists somewhere at sea level but I have never seen premium fuel at a marina. I would also think many with sufficient resources to afford the boat have lake properties and do not want the hassle of trailering such a large boat. So where do they buy premium fuel? Diesel fuel is more generally available than premium fuel in most marinas. In my opinion without additional engine options the future of the P23 appears very uncertain.

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I am a nice person and passionate about the Nautique products. However, my post and information I state are not subjective.

Once again, the ZZ6/H6 is a great engine; but not best suited for this particular application. I'm not saying there may not be other options down the road, but currently Nautique is putting in the best engine for this boat.

I feel you may be confused on how an engine works at elevation. I'm not quite sure where you got your information on high altitude lakes having the availability of higher octane fuel more than a lower elevation lake. If there was a case to be made, high altitude lakes would be the ones to eliminate the need for high octane fuels. Air is not as dense at elevation and engines wouldn't require the higher octane percentage. I for one have never had trouble getting 91 or 93 in Tahoe to Havasu to Ozarks.

I apologize for any grammatical errors made in this post as I'm writing from my phone on a plane.

[greggmck]

I feel you may be confused on how an engine works at elevation. I'm not quite sure where you got your information on high altitude lakes having the availability of higher octane fuel more than a lower elevation lake. If there was a case to be made, high altitude lakes would be the ones to eliminate the need for high octane fuels. Air is not as dense at elevation and engines wouldn't require the higher octane percentage. I for one have never had trouble getting 91 or 93 in Tahoe to Havasu to Ozarks.
I apologize for any grammatical errors made in this post as I'm writing from my phone on a plane.

Where to start... A basic google search will explain to you that high altitude air is less dense. To overcome the lack of O2 density and to improve horsepower superchargers are used to pressurize the fuel air mixture forced into the piston combustion chambers of the engine. Every PCM supercharged engine requires premium fuel. Supercharged engines are more likely to be in boats sold in regions with higher elevations. Marinas in high altitude regions have adapted to the fuel requirements of these more common supercharged engines in the boats that pull up for fuel service. Therefore premium is more available at high altitude marinas than in marinas at sea level.

[Wayward]

Where to start... A basic google search will explain to you that high altitude air is less dense. To overcome the lack of O2 density and to improve horsepower superchargers are used to pressurize the fuel air mixture forced into the piston combustion chambers of the engine. Every PCM supercharged engine requires premium fuel. Supercharged engines are more likely to be in boats sold in regions with higher elevations. Marinas in high altitude regions have adapted to the fuel requirements of these more common supercharged engines in the boats that pull up for fuel service. Therefore premium is more available at high altitude marinas than in marinas at sea level.

Doesn’t change the fact that he is right.... And the effect on supercharged engines at altitude is the same. Octane requirement is lower, regardless of what the little sticker says. If a positive displacement air pump (Supercharger) has less air going in, it will have a directly relative impact on the output. You could change your supercharger pulley to compensate for altitude, but nobody is doing that on wakeboats.

The notion that more marina’s at higher altitudes stock high octane fuel..........hmm, according to what data? Sure, there are a higher percentage of wakeboats with supercharged engines up there, because that is their only choice for adequate leftover power at altitude. Wake boats are what, 5-10% of the total market? And you are talking about a certain percentage of that market (maybe 50%, And that’s being generous) that is more likely to have a supercharged engine that requires 91?

So those marina’s will likely gouge 95% of their clientele, and require them to buy fuel at 30 cents a gallon more, just so the guys with a wakeboat with a LSA or supercharged raptor get the good stuff?? Sure we could throw in 1% more for the guys with the performance boats.

Maybe...... Maybe they do. Or maybe just a small percentage of them do.

[greggmck]

Doesn’t change the fact that he is right.... And the effect on supercharged engines at altitude is the same. Octane requirement is lower, regardless of what the little sticker says. If a positive displacement air pump (Supercharger) has less air going in, it will have a directly relative impact on the output. You could change your supercharger pulley to compensate for altitude, but nobody is doing that on wakeboats.

The notion that more marina’s at higher altitudes stock high octane fuel..........hmm, according to what data? Sure, there are a higher percentage of wakeboats with supercharged engines up there, because that is their only choice for adequate leftover power at altitude. Wake boats are what, 5-10% of the total market? And you are talking about a certain percentage of that market (maybe 50%, And that’s being generous) that is more likely to have a supercharged engine that requires 91?

So those marina’s will likely gouge 95% of their clientele, and require them to buy fuel at 30 cents a gallon more, just so the guys with a wakeboat with a LSA or supercharged raptor get the good stuff?? Sure we could throw in 1% more for the guys with the performance boats.

Maybe...... Maybe they do. Or maybe just a small percentage of them do.

But I’m guessing you will reply with something like- “I have been to almost every marina above 3000’ and I checked the fuel at every one.”

I stated that there is likely to be greater availability of premium fuel at marinas in high altitude locations because this is where super charged engines are more likely to be sold. I made no claim about the efficacy of octane at altitude, that point was added to demonstrate some completely unrelated knowledge. The facts are: The P23 has the XR7 and the use of premium fuel is not recommended but REQUIRED by the PCM. This is stated right on the 2020 price sheet. The efficacy of octane does not change the REQUIREMENT for premium fuel by the engine manufacture PCM.



My point was that I don't believe there are many marinas with Premium fuel. But is more likely to be available at higher altitudes where super charged engines are sold more frequently and engine manufactures require the use of premium fuel in them. If Premium fuel is not available at locations with higher altitude it is even less likely to be available at sea level where supercharged engines are rarely sold. If this is true the P23 will have a tougher time selling.

Why? Because many people with the disposable income to afford the P23 are more likely to own marina slips or lake front property and probably do not want to tow such a large heavy boat to get fuel. I know I don't and won't buy any boat requiring premium fuel. So not having marina fuel available might be a problem for P23 sales.

[Wayward]

greggmck No offense, man....... but we all know that the XR7 has a premium fuel requirement in the manual. But then you insisted on calling out nautiquegeek, as though he didn’t know what he was talking about. His post was 100% accurate.

His point was that engines at higher altitude have lower octane requirements needed to prevent preignition. That is 100% true, no matter if the engine is NA or SC.

Your post that marinas at high altitude are likely to have higher octane is a guess, at best. Maybe more of them do, maybe they don’t. You don’t actually know that.....

You also implied that superchargers are used to “overcome the lack of O2 density”.... which is not accurate. A supercharger is impacted just as much by altitude. Turbochargers are a different story, and depending on efficiency/oversizing, they can make up for altitude with less negative effect.

Hence why a lot of supercharged aircraft engines have multiple speed superchargers. So they can spin them faster as they go up in altitude to make up for the loss.

[blueroom]

Nautique is going to be fine with the Paragon. It's a cool boat and they will sell them in whatever limited number they build.

It's really is the dealers that will probably be hurt. For three reasons.

1) The bread and butter is the G series. I can't help but think that the Paragon is going to cannibalize the G reputation. People won't buy a Paragon, but it will keep them from buying a G once it isn't king any longer.

2) A lot like #1 above, there are an incredible number of people that go to a dealer and want to buy the "best" boat. They won't be able to get a Paragon, or even some of those will be priced out. I think this sends them to buy the best of another brand - and they will not get a G.

3) This last sales year was harder for a number of dealers. Boats did not move like they did the last couple of years, and there is still 2019 inventory sitting on lots - including G boats which has been unheard of. Seems like really bad timing, and something that will exasperate the situation. Throw in a possible recession and you have a recipe for some dealer hurt.

[blueroom]

Octane requirement is lower, regardless of what the little sticker says.

Octane requirements at altitude for normally aspirated engines is less, as it essentially creates lower compression ratios.

You use (and need) more octane in supercharged and turbo applications because the engines have a higher compression ratios, which is true at all altitudes.

However, as you indicated altitude does affect this some. For example, we run about 50% Av Gas in our boosted snowmobiles at 6000-8000 feet. Up around 10,000 feet we only need around 20% Av Gas, as even with the turbos compensating for altitude your compression ratios eventually go down and detonation is not as likely. However, it's not realistic to change your fuel mixture out based on the altitude and octane needed. Same goes on a boat.

With a supercharger you don't have boost control compensating for altitude, so your compression ratios (and altitude scrubbing power loss) are fairly linear - thus the comment on changing the gearing being accurate.