Nautique Releases G23 Paragon

[GMLIII]

All I can say for above comment WTF?

[core-rider]

come on, you know they came out with the 2:1 tranny the next model year (2014) after 2013 g23. and of course there were 2013 on the assembly line, when they made the switch, they had to change it over somewhere, right?

so typically what they would do is 2013 got old tranny and maybe if you lucky you might have a 2013 with the new tranny.

and i don't blame you for being upset or even calling...go for it...

...and feel free to vent all you want here. cause it is a forum for that stuff....

but yeah, i am never gonna feel bad for you...if you can afford a paragon and you choose to be an early adopter when you know darn well they did this last time, then yeah, whatever...you can afford it.

p.s. it is not like it gonna be underpowered or anything...you just don't like that they upgraded it already....

p.p.s. although not necessary, i would add a little context....i work for a company that runs a food shelf for people that can't afford actual food. not ever gonna feel sorry for a guy that is pissed cause they upgraded a boat the next model year....and i spoke to a guy a week ago that actually is a fireman trying to keep their nautique running. so whatever...

While I get what you’re saying... and it does make a point... you’re talking about the next model that a change was made. This is the same model year... only 4 months after the initial release and ordering was even possible... and you can’t tell me they didn’t already have this engine well into production! So why the change so soon!?! Is there an issue we haven’t heard about? This engine isn’t head over heels better than the 550, and the added power/ torque it does have was then basically handicapped by the lower ratio gearing essentially making the 2 the same overall performance IMHO! Maybe a bit better fuel consumption with DI which is a benefit, but overall if you can afford this boat the very meager fuel savings is pointless!

Ultimately I don’t personally care because I will be buried in my 2003 SANTE210... but that doesn’t mean I don’t think this was a bad move on Nautique’s part!


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[Tallredrider]

I think the question is whether the older supercharged motor with 2:1 will be all that different than the new motor. Most of us think those torque numbers are just made up by someone at the factory using jet fuel on a dyno anyway. Before we get our panties in a wad, I think we should find out if the new motor is really any better.

There are lots of folks using G23 boats that have the 450 motor and feel just fine about it. The P23 is heavier, but has less ballast and the difference in the wild really is only about 700 pounds. The 550 is such a beast that it will move the P23 just fine. I don't see it devaluing early build P23 boats, personally.

I trust that PCM has tested this new motor, but I would not guarantee it will be problem free.

It is not a guarantee that ZZ8 owners will feel all that better about their boating experience. Does it require premium fuel like the 550? Maybe they will feel better in their ego that they have the greatest engine possible, but it may not translate to real world water sports experience improvement.

[Tallredrider]

The 550 engine is no longer an option on the Paragons!

You can't order a 550 on the Paragon anymore.

The only engine available is the new ZZ8.

And I believe the gear ratio has changed, too.

100% closed cooling is nice.

How are the lifting rings only 21 feet apart? They are still on the transom, right? The front is about 8 inches from the nose, IIRC. So they should be at least 22 feet 4 inches apart.

[MikeC]

Gents I have a perfectly analogous scenario to compare. I ordered a 2020 F250 (the new 6.7L has 475HP/1050Tq and a 10 speed transmission). Imagine how ticked I'd have been if I ordered a 2020 (early as I did) and it came with the 2019 6.7L that has 450HP/935tq and a 6 speed transmission, both boats in the same model year, same MSRP, then Ford changed to the new engine and trans 4 months later. No bueno....

Ummmm Ford did just that in 2003 - the F250 went from the bulletproof 7.3L to the beleaguered 6.0L in the middle of the 2003 model year. In that case it was good to be early - the 7.3L is worth more than twice what the 6.0L is worth.
So things happen, designs change. If Nautique does anything it will be a matter of taking care of their customer. When the boat was ordered, you signed off on the specs, which included the 550.

[RDT-G23]

come on, you know they came out with the 2:1 tranny the next model year (2014) after 2013 g23. and of course there were 2013 on the assembly line, when they made the switch, they had to change it over somewhere, right?

so typically what they would do is 2013 got old tranny and maybe if you lucky you might have a 2013 with the new tranny.

and i don't blame you for being upset or even calling...go for it...

...and feel free to vent all you want here. cause it is a forum for that stuff....

but yeah, i am never gonna feel bad for you...if you can afford a paragon and you choose to be an early adopter when you know darn well they did this last time, then yeah, whatever...you can afford it.

p.s. it is not like it gonna be underpowered or anything...you just don't like that they upgraded it already....

p.p.s. although not necessary, i would add a little context....i work for a company that runs a food shelf for people that can't afford actual food. not ever gonna feel sorry for a guy that is pissed cause they upgraded a boat the next model year....and i spoke to a guy a week ago that actually is a fireman trying to keep their nautique running. so whatever...

Where to start...

Your post is presumptive-in the best case. First, I have no clue about the 2013/14 story of which you speak; I had a Cobalt at the time. I don't think it is proper that the company changed four months in. Regardless of my ability to afford it, this isn't a justification to impair the value of my boat before I even take delivery. I sure don't need, nor seek sorrow for my situation; and I didn't achieve the ability to pay for such a craft without being well equipped to take care of my business dealings. I certainly would have chosen the ZZ8, especially with the closed cooling. If this change would have been made for the '21 model year, I'd not have uttered a peep; as it is, Ray Charles (RIP) could see that we have a problem here, four months since the reveal of the boat-no information about it with the original collateral. In an earlier post above I presented an analogous scenario with my recently purchased 3/4 ton truck, and the absurdity of such a scenario happening. This will be fixed-as Nautique is a fine company; they have rectified issues for me before (big ones-see my posts from 2017).

In the end, you seem to have fixation (dare I say begrudging attitude) toward my ability to purchase such a craft; and because I can afford this boat-it is fine-because as you say, "yeah, whatever...you can afford it". I will not make this political, but your post above on this topic tiptoed perilously close to doing so.

I'll end where I started; you presume a lot.

[RDT-G23]

Ummmm Ford did just that in 2003 - the F250 went from the bulletproof 7.3L to the beleaguered 6.0L in the middle of the 2003 model year. In that case it was good to be early - the 7.3L is worth more than twice what the 6.0L is worth.
So things happen, designs change. If Nautique does anything it will be a matter of taking care of their customer. When the boat was ordered, you signed off on the specs, which included the 550.

Being the detail guy I am, I cut and pasted the text from the 2003 Ford Duper Duty catalog. (I had a 2004 6.0L, BTW). That said, the 6.0L was advertized in the brochure for introduction in Fall, 2002 for the 2003 year.

But the big news for 2003 is right here. Coming in Fall 2002, it’s the all new 32-valve 6.0L Power Stroke V8. It’s diesel. It’s turbocharged. It’s the new diesel benchmark for the highest torque and diesel horsepower in its class. An unbelievable 560 lb.-ft. @ 2000 rpm and 325 hp @ 3300 rpm. Lower right is our new TorqShiftTM heavy-duty transmission. It is specifically engineered to handle the new levels of power generated by the new 6.0L Power Stroke V8 Turbo Diesel.

The point here is that Ford advertized the change at the year break. BTW, I am responsible for ~1,000 trucks (diesel and CNG) for a large company I'm sure you have heard of; I've run every service truck small diesel you can think of.

[memerr]

I can confirm that there is an up charge for the ZZ8 - $13,725 MSRP. If that’s not the case now that this is the only engine option available without base package price increasing from $265k then my dealer and I will have a discussion. However, I’m confident there’s an increase. Has anyone ordered recently that can confirm new base price? I learned about the option of the ZZ8 almost 8 weeks ago from my dealer and changed my order - for good or bad.


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[MG94]

I can confirm that there is an up charge for the ZZ8 - $13,725 MSRP. If that’s not the case now that this is the only engine option available without base package price increasing from $265k then my dealer and I will have a discussion. However, I’m confident there’s an increase. Has anyone ordered recently that can confirm new base price? I learned about the option of the ZZ8 almost 8 weeks ago from my dealer and changed my order - for good or bad.


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Did it delay when you could get it?


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[memerr]

Did it delay when you could get it?


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I do not believe so. Dealer and I discussed this. He did not think it would have any effect on build slot since Nautique was ramping up for this engine. I ordered Dec 1. I just signed off on final build specs for dealer to turn in to Nautique 10 days ago.


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[MG94]

I’m guessing the hours I will put on will devalue mine to the point the motor difference won’t even matter when I’m ready to sell it. So as long as the 550 works well enough for the boat I’m good. I just wanted it this month so we could have it for our first trip that’s less then a month away.


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[Hogwild]

Did it delay when you could get it?


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I had heard about this motor back in December and held off ordering my P25 till the specs were out on the motor. Yesterday was the last day (for me) to order and make a decision on the motor in order to have my boat by the beginning of April for whatever that's worth. As with any new power plant I'm skeptical of being the lab rat on working out the kinks associated with a new piece of equipment. However, the history I've experience of unparalleled service with my dealer I'm confident whatever issues may arise they will take care of it promptly.

[buzzardmountain]

Seeing the Paragon in person made me REALLY appreciate my G23. While the P23 is incredible in person...it’s hard not to look around the boat show and observe what $265-$315k gets you in to.

[lashburn]

Seeing the Paragon in person made me REALLY appreciate my G23. While the P23 is incredible in person...it’s hard not to look around the boat show and observe what $265-$315k gets you in to.

at the LA Boat show , I thought just what you wrote above. While the Paragon is crazy nice.... that $$ buys you a Cruiser , with overnight accommodations , air-conditioned, Generator, even twin engines in some cases...

obviously , there is no comaparison between the 2 platforms, but is interesting to note as you walk around the Boat show.

[MG94]

at the LA Boat show , I thought just what you wrote above. While the Paragon is crazy nice.... that $$ buys you a Cruiser , with overnight accommodations , air-conditioned, Generator, even twin engines in some cases...

obviously , there is no comaparison between the 2 platforms, but is interesting to note as you walk around the Boat show.

I did the same thing but I same tell you which one I will have more fun on. We put 150hours on last year and I bet we pulled for 145 of that. Swam off the boat for maybe 2 hours total.


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