Buying a Paragon is so difficult??

[SteeleWake]

Thanks for this^^^^

1..I have 24 hours to figure out what I want to do. As of right now we walked on the boat, for a number of reasons, the deal breaker being the novice speed but if you can give me an idea on a few other things it would greatly help me make my decision.....

2..Top Speed with no ballast was 35mph is that correct? I thought it was in the low 40's

3..We had an engine light come on and a warning he cleared before i could see that said something about engine over RPMs....Have you ever seen or heard of this issue?

4..The subwoofers, they where not very loud at all and I even had to put my ear next to the wakesubs with volume at halfway and all 4 subs set to +12? Normal?

5..The steering assist, several times at speeds below 4mph it wouldnt engage while we where in gear, and no matter how much the wheel was turned. But the steering indicator bars where not bright so it seemed the electronics was cutting it out, then it would randomly work. and I tried it on both low and high.....Works fine if you do it manually just not with steering wheel.....Any insight on what that might be about?

6..The rear transom walk threw. I slowed like I would on my GS20 and holy cow, buckets of water flew in the back of the boat soaking everything. I didnt just let of the gas but clearly I slowed way to fast. Have you gotten used to this and now it never happens? Cause it soaked the rear lockers, seats, and anybody sitting by walk through which was my son....

7..Nothing you can advise me on about this but I wasnt to thrilled to find out it takes as long to fill ballasts as my GS20....Geez, for that money couldnt they give you a much bigger pump...

And yeah, these guys didnt help by taking us to the dirty Sacramento river where its super shallow, most of it was 5' to 15' and 58* water so we couldnt get behind it for a tow...Terrible place to go Honestly. I could see when we got to some deeper areas, while short lived, the wake would change shape....Surf Wave is pretty amazing....

As to your response on novice setting. I was not aware you can change the wake shape on novice, we didnt even try, and no one mentioned it to us...

Happy to help! Will answer what I can and/or provide my thoughts, but reach out if you have other questions.

Top speed - sounds about right, but other than break-in never go that fast. There is a video (perhaps what you saw) where N3 got a Paragon up to around 42ish, but that was with different motor/v-drive and also a much different prop (the old G23 stock prop 3561).

Engine code - was it during the full speed pull? I've never seen that type of code before, and only thing I can think of is RPMs somehow exceeded max during high speed. You could ask them about it as still should be stored in fault log.

Subwoofers - definitely something not set right. Were you connected via bluetooth or cable? Stupid question, but are you sure volume was all the way up on phone? We have usually listen to music between 24 and 36...36 for the towers when someone is riding, and the tower and rear subs are LOUD at that setting.

Steering assist - I have had that happen a few times if am very close to 4mph, but is really rare. I assumed speed was just too close to max and there's a bit of buffer there before it engages. I do know if you do too much back/forth with it that it will disable temporarily, but have never had that happen to me. As for the close to 4mph thing, I use paddlewheel on everything except wakeboarding with full ballast and that seems to help with keeping the thrusters ready to engage in auto or manual always.

Tsunami stops - yeah, all have been there and done that! The G23s and Paragons sit deep and slow pretty fast with their massive props...so just invites that rooster tail to catch the boat and come on inside. That said, yes it is something you quickly get used to and easily prevent from happening. Hard to describe on internet, but when I go to stop I just let off throttle then turn left a bit, right before water hits back I blip the throttle and that is just enough to have water hit rear corner rather than walk through. Side benefit, it turns the boat around that much quicker and makes getting back to rider quickly easier.

Ballast - yes, that is the downside to having 2200 lbs all sub-floor....they use reversible pumps that can only go so fast. I do think that they use larger pumps than in the GS series, but again you're filling 2200 lbs which takes some time. I have my routine down now such that I never notice it...get to ride spot, start ballast, raise tower (rolling out stealth mode is a must), situate passengers, get gear ready and stretch a bit, on back deck and jumping in just about the time it is full.

Sac river - they probably should have told you, but that was only choice. Folsom has been shut down to only 5mph on the whole lake.

[JACOB11379]

Do you still have your GS? I only ask because if you do, this takes any pressure off you to make a rushed 24 hr decision. At the end of the day, there will be more Paragons for sale, and your GS likely won't lose that much value relatively.

I also wandered over to the website of what I think is the dealer you were looking at... what about incrementally stepping up to the GS24 they have for sale? ZR7 motor (which I didn't even know you could get in a GS) and a little more size, but a still predictable flat wake for the younger crew - you might not be pumped about white, I have no idea, but it is $100k cheaper. Then you can see what the market for the P23s look like in the future and make a decision that is more timely while still riding a really sweet boat.

Just a thought.

Probably wouldn't go with another GS....They did mention it but I'm pretty set on a G.

They would only give me 72k for my 2020 GS20. Two other places offered me 95k and 93k for trade.

Only reason I considered P23 is it was 229k. So even though I'm taking it in the shorts with the trade in I'm breaking even on market for P23s.....

I'm certainly not gonna give them a 72k trade on a 2020 and pay in full for a new boat.....

But I appreciate the suggestions....

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[JACOB11379]

Happy to help! Will answer what I can and/or provide my thoughts, but reach out if you have other questions.

Top speed - sounds about right, but other than break-in never go that fast. There is a video (perhaps what you saw) where N3 got a Paragon up to around 42ish, but that was with different motor/v-drive and also a much different prop (the old G23 stock prop 3561).

Engine code - was it during the full speed pull? I've never seen that type of code before, and only thing I can think of is RPMs somehow exceeded max during high speed. You could ask them about it as still should be stored in fault log.

Subwoofers - definitely something not set right. Were you connected via bluetooth or cable? Stupid question, but are you sure volume was all the way up on phone? We have usually listen to music between 24 and 36...36 for the towers when someone is riding, and the tower and rear subs are LOUD at that setting.

Steering assist - I have had that happen a few times if am very close to 4mph, but is really rare. I assumed speed was just too close to max and there's a bit of buffer there before it engages. I do know if you do too much back/forth with it that it will disable temporarily, but have never had that happen to me. As for the close to 4mph thing, I use paddlewheel on everything except wakeboarding with full ballast and that seems to help with keeping the thrusters ready to engage in auto or manual always.

Tsunami stops - yeah, all have been there and done that! The G23s and Paragons sit deep and slow pretty fast with their massive props...so just invites that rooster tail to catch the boat and come on inside. That said, yes it is something you quickly get used to and easily prevent from happening. Hard to describe on internet, but when I go to stop I just let off throttle then turn left a bit, right before water hits back I blip the throttle and that is just enough to have water hit rear corner rather than walk through. Side benefit, it turns the boat around that much quicker and makes getting back to rider quickly easier.

Ballast - yes, that is the downside to having 2200 lbs all sub-floor....they use reversible pumps that can only go so fast. I do think that they use larger pumps than in the GS series, but again you're filling 2200 lbs which takes some time. I have my routine down now such that I never notice it...get to ride spot, start ballast, raise tower (rolling out stealth mode is a must), situate passengers, get gear ready and stretch a bit, on back deck and jumping in just about the time it is full.

Sac river - they probably should have told you, but that was only choice. Folsom has been shut down to only 5mph on the whole lake.

Man. So many things I loved about this boat.

I'm gutted. Literally felt sick leaving the dealership for my 2 hour ride home.

I'm gonna sleep on it and figure out tomorrow. This is BY FAR the most stressful purchase I have ever made. And its not financial....lol....ugh...

Thanks for help man I really appreciate it...

Yes phone was up, connected to pandora via Bluetooth

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[mooneywa]

Probably wouldn't go with another GS....They did mention it but I'm pretty set on a G.

They would only give me 72k for my 2020 GS20. Two other places offered me 95k and 93k for trade.

Only reason I considered P23 is it was 229k. So even though I'm taking it in the shorts with the trade in I'm breaking even on market for P23s.....

I'm certainly not gonna give them a 72k trade on a 2020 and pay in full for a new boat.....

But I appreciate the suggestions....

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That is an absolutely atrocious trade. That's probably 45% off MSRP? I don't even have the words to describe that and I'm curious what the point of that poor of an offer is? Is CA tax based on sales price only (vice difference with trade) of the new boat and by reducing the trade value, they lower the P23 sales price to lower tax? Or is it some dealer games those of us in north TX are fortunate enough not to have to deal with?

To put that in perspective... that number is only $9k more than a 2015 210 without a trailer that I traded last year.

Woof.

[kylant]

for spending that kind of money, for me, it would have to be a WOW, gotta have experience.
Sounds like that is not the case. I would pass.

Order a '21 G23, make it the way you want. You will have a mellower novice wake.

My guess is that you will have an overall better feeling. The biggest, most expensive is not always the best.

Good luck

[JACOB11379]

Last night was actually the first night ive slept more than 5 hours since I contacted this dealer on the boat....

Way to many things out of line throughout this entire deal....This PARTICULAR boat is not for me at least at this time. I havent necessarily given up on a P23 but I need to get one out in some good water and actually be able to get behind one to see for myself how everything is.

[JACOB11379]

That is an absolutely atrocious trade. That's probably 45% off MSRP? I don't even have the words to describe that and I'm curious what the point of that poor of an offer is? Is CA tax based on sales price only (vice difference with trade) of the new boat and by reducing the trade value, they lower the P23 sales price to lower tax? Or is it some dealer games those of us in north TX are fortunate enough not to have to deal with?

To put that in perspective... that number is only $9k more than a 2015 210 without a trailer that I traded last year.

Woof.

buy lower the price of my trade-in they actually INCREASED the price of my sales tax. its not wrote up like they are giving me 72k, its wrote like they are giving me 95k(what I owe) and im buyin the P23 for 252k instead of 229k....

But this is another part of the process I never even mentioned here that they did me dirty on. I tried for weeks to get more for my boat on trade, I finally came down to 80k and dude says ok ill write it up and send it over. he sends me the numbers and calls me while im on a service call so I cant really digest everything number wise but he tells me I ran for 80k like you said. 2 hours later im still trying to figure out the numbers and text him hes gonna have to break it down for me cause i cant figure out how if he gave me 80k trade im at 252k for the boat. He responds with we are only giving you 72k.....Pretty dirty to be honest....I sat on that for a couple days before saying go ahead and run financing....mainly due to people here saying how great the dealership is, the boat being what I wanted via all my research, and them being my warranty shop for Nautique....

[Gtsum2]

Sounds like a screwed situation all the way around. Dealer jerk around, terrible trade and some issues with the boat. I would wait and take your time. You have a nice boat to use in the meantime.

Second putting note weight on ride side for novice wakeboarder at slower speeds to clean it up. I have to do that on my 2020 g23 at 17-17.5


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[JACOB11379]

I've reached out to Irvine branch in Sol Cal where I got my current boat.

Those guys are super good to deal with.

We are considering a commute to Lake Havasu to get a tow in a lake behind someone that lives with the boat. But its about 8 hours away.

From there, if its what we expect it will be well either find something used or buy new from Irvine.

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[patoloco]

[for spending that kind of money, for me, it would have to be a WOW, gotta have experience.
Sounds like that is not the case. I would pass.

Great advice there. I stressed a ton over my Nautique purchases....but it wasn't around the boat itself, it was just about spending that much money. Once I made that decision I felt awesome and really excited to get it on the water. I couldn't imagine spending the cost of a house on a boat and not being giddy about using it.

Once you get past the stress of this deal, other options will pop up. Or just get a slightly used G23 and go spend the 100K savings on a new corvette Good luck!

[markj]

Thanks for this^^^^

1..I have 24 hours to figure out what I want to do. As of right now we walked on the boat, for a number of reasons, the deal breaker being the novice speed but if you can give me an idea on a few other things it would greatly help me make my decision.....

2..Top Speed with no ballast was 35mph is that correct? I thought it was in the low 40's

3..We had an engine light come on and a warning he cleared before i could see that said something about engine over RPMs....Have you ever seen or heard of this issue?

4..The subwoofers, they where not very loud at all and I even had to put my ear next to the wakesubs with volume at halfway and all 4 subs set to +12? Normal?

5..The steering assist, several times at speeds below 4mph it wouldnt engage while we where in gear, and no matter how much the wheel was turned. But the steering indicator bars where not bright so it seemed the electronics was cutting it out, then it would randomly work. and I tried it on both low and high.....Works fine if you do it manually just not with steering wheel.....Any insight on what that might be about?

6..The rear transom walk threw. I slowed like I would on my GS20 and holy cow, buckets of water flew in the back of the boat soaking everything. I didnt just let of the gas but clearly I slowed way to fast. Have you gotten used to this and now it never happens? Cause it soaked the rear lockers, seats, and anybody sitting by walk through which was my son....

7..Nothing you can advise me on about this but I wasnt to thrilled to find out it takes as long to fill ballasts as my GS20....Geez, for that money couldnt they give you a much bigger pump...

And yeah, these guys didnt help by taking us to the dirty Sacramento river where its super shallow, most of it was 5' to 15' and 58* water so we couldnt get behind it for a tow...Terrible place to go Honestly. I could see when we got to some deeper areas, while short lived, the wake would change shape....Surf Wave is pretty amazing....

As to your response on novice setting. I was not aware you can change the wake shape on novice, we didnt even try, and no one mentioned it to us...

Unfortunately, you went on a bad day. There was a severe wind storm that blew a ton of dirt from the neighboring ag land into the river for a couple days straight and made it nasty. Also, the river is super low now and your salesman should have taken you down river further where the depth is more like 20’ and deeper right now. If you want to see water that’s always dirty no matter what, you go to the delta. Oh, and the salmon season in the river has been bad this year because the water won’t cool down enough for them to come up and spawn so either you misread the water temp gauge or the gauge was off. It was probably 68, not 58.

[JACOB11379]

Unfortunately, you went on a bad day. There was a severe wind storm that blew a ton of dirt from the neighboring ag land into the river for a couple days straight and made it nasty. Also, the river is super low now and your salesman should have taken you down river further where the depth is more like 20’ and deeper right now. If you want to see water that’s always dirty no matter what, you go to the delta. Oh, and the salmon season in the river has been bad this year because the water won’t cool down enough for them to come up and spawn so either you misread the water temp gauge or the gauge was off. It was probably 68, not 58.

Miller park is where they took us. I dont know much about the area. There was a bridge just up or down river that we had to turn around at and they wanted us to stay between that bridge and the boat launch.

Water was cold that I know, 58* is what it read but who knows how accurate it was....

So many things werent right about the purchase and thats OK. There is lots of other options that will come up in due time.

[JACOB11379]

Anybody know how many Paragons where made in 2020?

And how many of the green and white Brochure Paragons where made? Where these special order? Limited? Or something like that?

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