Nautique PLEASE READ!

[Skidave]

Interesting insult you throw out there.

While I find some of the technical innovations being implemented in boats today useful I honestly don't think having a concern about technology for technology's sake makes you a luddite or tech laggard. There isn't a single board out there that doesn't have a story about issues with firmware, $5K screens needing to be replaced, LED cup holders starting on fire or systems failing due to some over complicated system of poor design. Just because something is new doesn't make it good. In IT we call this the bleeding edge for a reason and it looks to me like there may be a bit of bleeding going on here.

As to the firmware upgrade..... Having been a data center manager and now a system engineer for a server manufacture I will tell you straight up you won't last long in IT blindly updating firmware (you will however get to spend long nights in the data center trying to un-F the mess you made). You learn very quickly (as it would appear the OP has) that you really need to know exactly what you're getting before implementing the latest firmware code drop. As someone that has been at ground zero for my share of failed firmware implementations (see the above comment about long nights in the data center) I can tell you first hand that we only recommend a firmware upgrade after extensive research, testing and most importantly only if it addresses a specific issue you are having or adds a specific feature you need. Unfortunately it's been my experience that most firmware updates will fix one issue but all too often have undesirable consequences in other areas which seems the case here.

Depending on how the firmware was written (and/or the level of support you have from those who wrote it) the good news is that you should be able to back level the firmware although some developers make this more difficult than is necessary. Well thought out systems (mostly routers and higher end servers) will retain multiple copies of the firmware within the system but I'm not aware of this feature in the systems implemented in the boating industry. One of the problems I see with the systems in these boats is that they're either proprietary (think old Medallion systems) or the technology has been "lifted" from another system (like the Murphy screens) then modified by a third party which can make the quality of the solution implementation, firmware and support sketchy. The truly sketchy part comes when the firmware provided by the manufacture is modified by the third party. At this point the OEM has no responsibility for fixing anything but their original code and the third party either has to debug their code or prove the OEM's code is bad. Yeah, been here before too.

One only need look at the mess Medallion made over the years to boating systems to understand why many are gun shy jumping on the latest boating technology innovations. MasterCraft and Nautique have both had their fair share of failed gauge packages that required a rip and replace fix. Doesn't sound like much has changed. Should it all work flawlessly when that new boat is dropped off to you? Absolutely. Does it? Rarely. I think a lot of people jump in their cars and really don't realize the amount of testing, development and mountains of cash that has gone into making those what they are today. Sadly I don't see any boating manufacture being able to duplicate those levels of resources or investment to get to the quality of those systems any time soon.

Well put. I have been in the medical equipment repair industry for 20+ years and now focused on IT. Medical devices run outdated operating systems and lag behind in technology. There are a few reasons, but mainly the FDA. Every model needs to be validated, every software revision must be validated, hardware is not changed frequently in a model, but many times due to supply or chipset change, it is required. Point is, the equipment uptime is near 100%. Anyone have a procedure canceled because the surgical light would not boot or the anesthesia machine firmware changed the user interface and now no one knows how to run the machine. Nope. But we test all new software before installation at my healthcare system. Daunting, but we find flaws that would cause issues if implemented.

No one governs boat display software or the software in your Ring doorbell (just an example). You get what is in the update. Sometimes good for most or sometimes poor for most. I'm still mad that Google took away the webpage back feature from the backspace key years ago. Not enough people complained for them to put it back.

Sent from my SM-J337V using Tapatalk

[FOB1SAN]

I went to update my paragon yesterday and it crashed. I had to restart everything and decided not to update. Glad it didn’t work.

[bturner]

Firmware updates are a lot more dicey than people realize, a lot can happen not only from loading new code but during the upgrade process as well. I've had servers I've had to flash 3 or 4 times to take an update and have had to replace systemboards from failed updates as well. A few months back I spent a weekend in a customer's data center with an EPROM writer force flashing the Baseline Management Controllers in 28 servers that were locked up because we couldn't get them to update through the user interface. The interesting part on these is that the servers were fine before the customer rolled out a routine unattended flash update for security holes that resulted in the corruption of the BMC firmware in a third of the servers in one of their server farms. And no they were not happy about it which is why I drove for 6 hours to manually do the updates.

All too often flashing is the hail Mary of the uninformed or those desperate to fix a problem without a clue of what they're doing. This is especially true when you think you're updating to fix a bug in the code and you actually have something else going on like bad grounding, a loose or cold solder joint or bad memory within the controller itself. You hear this all the time where shops will be updating systems for rebooting or locking issues. Sometimes you have to step back and think through things a bit. If I were having a locking or reboot issue in say something like a server for example, would it really make sense to try and fix the system with a firmware update that was running fine a month ago with the old firmware? Probably not unless there was a specific fix within that firmware update that addresses locking or rebooting issues. It's all too tempting for a busy shop that is looking to move a warranty claim out the door to do what we call a flash and dash. The idea is to get the ticket off your desk and close the case as quickly as possible. You see this all the time with end user help desks where the tech is rated on how quickly they can take and close tickets. If you dealer ever says something like "we didn't see the problem but we flashed the system" what do you think the odds are that you're boat will be going back to the shop?

[jtryon]

to the points above--always be n-1 aka one version behind the current one. let others figure out the issues with the newest version and correct them while you stay on the last reliable version

[greggmck]

Just a bit of clarification. The update I performed on my Paragon was an application SOFTWARE update. Not a FIRMWARE update. There is a profound difference. Basically software runs on top of the operating system (most likely to be an Android / Linux variation). The operating system runs on top of firmware. Firmware is the lowest level functionality that controls chipset behavior. Doing Firmware updates in servers can be complex and is generally tested expensively on testbeds before a significant roll out. That is NOT the same thing. Since most Nautique owners don't have a Paragon or G23 testbed there is no way to profile these updates beforehand. Finally, in my experience the vast majority of Nautique SOFTWARE updates have delivered well behaving functionality improvement.

[bird_dog0347]

to the points above--always be n-1 aka one version behind the current one. let others figure out the issues with the newest version and correct them while you stay on the last reliable version

I've been in IT for the last 20 years and I take an even more conservative approach. Currently I'm a network Architect at a very large fortune 500 company so I don't mess with code levels, but at my last job as the manager of network engineering our rule was in order to have new code for our network infrastructure be considered as the new standard code it had to meet at least these three requirements. The only exceptions being security issues, or having to fix a bug that we know for sure is impacting us.

1. It cannot be the very latest version, there has to be at least 1 newer version out there.
2. It must be at least 6 months old as a general release code from the vendor.
3. it cannot be a dot zero code, for example on a load balancer if we are running version 14.2.3 and the next version out is 15.0.x it is off the table until there is at least a 15.1.x but the other two rules still apply.

[bturner]

Just a bit of clarification. The update I performed on my Paragon was an application SOFTWARE update. Not a FIRMWARE update. There is a profound difference. Basically software runs on top of the operating system (most likely to be an Android / Linux variation). The operating system runs on top of firmware. Firmware is the lowest level functionality that controls chipset behavior. Doing Firmware updates in servers can be complex and is generally tested expensively on testbeds before a significant roll out. That is NOT the same thing. Since most Nautique owners don't have a Paragon or G23 testbed there is no way to profile these updates beforehand. Finally, in my experience the vast majority of Nautique SOFTWARE updates have delivered well behaving functionality improvement.

OS updates can be even worse. If you've never experienced issues with OS updates you apparently haven't been doing any of the Windows 10 updates. I have several friends I help with their small business networks/servers (for free, OK, OK for beers). About every third update you can count on something not working anymore whether it's a credit card scanner, accounting software, your VPN software (this actually happened to me on the last code drop) or some other piece of hardware/software that worked before the update and now doesn't. Or as Microsoft likes to do they'll move things around, remove a feature or change the look of the desktop to something you hate. Oh and BTW yes we absolutely test ANY server OS build change the same way we test firmware.

As to test beds and blind faith updates..... sure you don't a have a test bed but the dealer does if they have a demo boat or they should have access to one through corporate or someone should have at least created a video of the changes. While Nautique may have a great track record with their updates apparently this wasn't one of them and you got caught by it. Like it or not this was somewhat self inflicted, unless of course you left out the part about someone having a gun to your head forcing you to do the update. As I understand it you had a some what buggy system that you were able to live with and by choice rolled the dice with software that had just been released and that you had never seen run in hopes that it would be better. Completely understandable, been there and done that but that's what we call the bleeding edge when it comes to any update OS or firmware and these are the types of things that happen when you choose bleeding edge. Sometimes they're great and well, a lot of times not so much.

I do wish you the best of luck getting at least a roll back to your previous code level as I completely understand your disappointment and frasatraution. I could be absolutely wrong but expecting someone to write code to fix this latest version to your liking pronto based on this thread is well, let me shake the magic 8 ball here..... the 8 ball says not likely. I think your better odds are going to be with the roll back.

[scottb7]

A lot of good technical info, but i think what has happened over last 5 years is pretty simple: The price of the boat has gone up - and past the point - where any BS would be acceptable to owners.

[greggmck]

Writing about IT "experience" of OS and firmware updates is completely unrelated to this issue. Oh yea, in my career I led the design and development of Microsoft's cloud infrastructure, several TOP 500 supercomputers and 23 enterprise server systems. I have dozens of patents in hardware design, operating system and firmware optimization and enhancement. Your description of OS updates and firmware has nothing to do with updating the application software in my boat. But it sounds cool. I chose to update my boat, because like my phone, PC and other devices I have found it far more reliable to keep applications up to date. I don't operate out of ignorance, hope or fear. When things do go wrong I also have the technical acumen to solve the problem. My boat is not broken, I don't have disabled peripherals that prevent me from using it, the screen simply has a truncated rear view camera, that's it. While I might be more cautious with system software updates especially in a commercial environment where revenue or urgent services could be at risk updating my LINC software is not remotely in the same category.

[boomersooner]

This is interesting since I was hoping the updated software would be available to the '21 owners. I haven't checked yet to see if it is available to me. I have no issues with the removal of GoPro functionality as it didn't work with my GP9. I use the remote. I also never really thought the use the camera as a view while someone is surfing. For me, the camera is oftentimes useless due to glare. I've never had a boat with a camera so it ends up being more of something I have to close out than something of use. I'll know more shortly if the update if an option for me.

[Sammm724]

lmao. i don't understand watching a screen instead of a good mirror either.

Yeah exactly! So you are looking for jet skis and other boaters through the camera? Ummmm that doesn't really sound safe, I suggest you use your rear view mirror or turn your head around to look and not depend on a tv screen which could be delayed. JMO

[srock]

Holy crap...that is why my dash looks like this.

[Nautiquehunter]

Holy crap...that is why my dash looks like this.

No its because you are a Luddite too.

[bturner]

Guess I am too. But at least I don't have to worry about my LED cup warmer not working....

[hal2814]

I feel like we’re skewing way off topic for a $5k screen in a $200k+ boat. Updates aren’t alway perfect. Nothing in this update prevented the boat from operating. It just delivered a bad user experience and may have broken GoPro functionality. I do hope Greg forwarded this info directly to Nautique. I know in my line of work customer feedback is important. Sometimes we think we have a good design but the end users have valuable feedback on how to improve it.