Moving from G23 Paragon to Malibu M240

[Renegrub]

I love my G23 Paragon. But is has had a few issues and my only Nautique dealer on my lake is not responsive. It is painful. I have been waiting for weeks for a response to some warranty-related issues. When I contrast my experience with my other dealer that services my big cruiser, it is night and day. So I find myself thinking I need to buy another brand boat from a more responsive, higher quality dealer. That leaves me with two options - Malibu M240 or a Tige ZX25. The Tige just feels like a step down and the feedback on the Tige forum has been helpful. It is an option but as a car guy, the Paragon G23 is just such a great boat.

I'm looking at the Malibu M240 as it is the other reputable, responsive dealer on the lake. Anyone experience that boat and care to tell me what I will miss about my G23 Paragon if I go that route?

As many of you have said, half of buying a boat is the dealer experience and I just want turnkey. I want to call the service guy, tell him or her what the issues are, pay them to come get my boat (or service at my dock) and then when I return have it all sorted out.

I don't want to deal with hauling my G23 Paragon to some other lake to get serviced by a reputable dealer because that is too much effort.

So - anyone have any insights into what I'll miss if I go the M240 or ZX25 route?

Thanks (in advance).

[NautiqueJeff]

You'll miss being able to see out of the windshield. That boat (M240) rides so bow-high that you'll need to use a bolster or stand up probably.

That said, the importance of a good dealer can't be overstated. If your situation is as bad as you say, I can't blame you for switching.

[hal2814]

The M240 is a nice boat but it’s not a Paragon. I got to ride in one a few months ago. It’s the first Malibu wave I’ve ridden that I actually like. I think in your situation I’d do the same thing but be prepared to be a little un-wowed, especially with fit and finish. It’s not bad. It’s just not top tier.

[Renegrub]

You'll miss being able to see out of the windshield. That boat (M240) rides so bow-high that you'll need to use a bolster or stand up probably.

That said, the importance of a good dealer can't be overstated. If your situation is as bad as you say, I can't blame you for switching.

Thank you. Yeah - I am torn - like the boat. Hoping these few issues I have had are few and far between and I have a 2022 on order, but no idea if/when it will actual show up and I just need a dealer who is responsive. The G23 Paragon has been good otherwise - although that engine does chug fuel. Hoping the fix someone recommended with shortening the fuel hose will get it to fill in a reasonable time. Right now the boat only fills at a slow pace - took me 20 minutes to add 25% to the tank...

[Renegrub]

The M240 is a nice boat but it’s not a Paragon. I got to ride in one a few months ago. It’s the first Malibu wave I’ve ridden that I actually like. I think in your situation I’d do the same thing but be prepared to be a little un-wowed, especially with fit and finish. It’s not bad. It’s just not top tier.

That is 100% my concern. Is there anything that stacks up to a Nautique?

[NautiqueJeff]

The G23 Paragon has been good otherwise - although that engine does chug fuel.

Did you get an early one with the 550 engine, or does yours have the ZZ8? Just wondering. I have a 2022 P23 on order.

[Renegrub]

Did you get an early one with the 550 engine, or does yours have the ZZ8? Just wondering. I have a 2022 P23 on order.

My current one has the 550HP and the one on order has the 600HP.

[Renegrub]

Did you get an early one with the 550 engine, or does yours have the ZZ8? Just wondering. I have a 2022 P23 on order.

Do you have an actual complete date? Or build time? My dealer just said vaguely January or February...

BTW - spent seven years in CLT and we boated on Lake Wylie. Many years ago but it was where I bought my first boat!

[NautiqueJeff]

Hopefully the direct injection will help with the fuel usage. We'll see!

[NautiqueJeff]

Do you have an actual complete date? Or build time? My dealer just said vaguely January or February...

BTW - spent seven years in CLT and we boated on Lake Wylie. Many years ago but it was where I bought my first boat!

I have an estimated completion date, but my orders are funny. They sometimes get pushed around to accommodate other orders, which I have no problem with. My situation is unique.

Yeah, this area has some great lakes! That's cool that you were here! If you bought a Nautique when you were here, you probably bought it from my friend and neighbor across the cove here. He used to own the local Nautique dealership back in the mid-2000's.

[Smindustries]

I've spent the entirety of my professional career working in or with automotive dealership service departments, and have seen all manners of manufacturer warranty processes. No process that I've encountered is as cumbersome as Nautique's.

Manufacturers trusts their dealers to represent them and their product because a dealership acts as an agent of the manufacturer. This is true not only in sales, but in service. Manufacturers trust that a dealer's manufacturer-trained technician, using manufacturer-defined procedures, can diagnose and repair a vehicle, getting that customer back on the road. Timely local service by a national brand. That's what franchising is all about. Except to Nautique.

Nautique only trusts their dealers to sell the boats. When it comes to repairing them, they don't trust their dealers. In a normal operation, a technician diagnoses a problem, ascertains whether or not it's covered by the warranty, and if it is, orders a new part. The new part arrives, the technician installs it, the vehicle is given to the customer, and the manufacturer is billed for the repair.

Nautique requires the issue be diagnosed, and a warranty claim be submitted and approved prior to them even sending parts. This adds incredible delays. I needed three ballast sensors, and a fuel injector for a 2019 boat that I bought new in 2020. After a week of not hearing anything from the dealer, I called and they told me they're beholden to a guy named 'Ron'. The dealer was told that PCM didn't have an injector. When I mentioned that it's a GM L86 injector, and the local dealer had it in stock, I was told all they can do is send an email to Ron and ask him to expedite the claim.

Another week went by and after I was told that Nautique wouldn't even send the parts for me to buy the parts over the counter, I called Ron again. He didn't pick up the phone or call me back, but he was gracious enough to ship the ballast sensors and authorize the dealership to buy an injector locally.

However, he was stingy enough to not authorize a set of intake manifold gaskets, which are not reusable. On an LS motor, the gaskets flatten out and allow air in when you reuse them. Everyone knew this. The technician working on the boat knew it. I knew it. Ron knew it.

After putting the engine back together, the air leak triggered a CEL, and only then was a new set of gaskets authorized. That was on a Thursday. The new gaskets were sent Friday and received Monday. Nautique's failure to trust their technician and rolling of the dice with my repair cost me another weekend with my family.

All told, I lost a significant portion of my summer to Nautique's idiotic bureaucracy. They don't care about that. They also don't care about the adversarial relationship it creates between customers and their dealers. What Nautique cares about is the money.

When a manufacturer makes and sells a widget, they typically set aside money from the production of each unit in anticipation of any defects in that unit converting to claims made against the warranty. That money is called a reserve. If your widget is a basketball hoop the reserve set-asides are practically non-existent. When your widget is a six-figure boat, the reserve set-asides are significant.

The reserve accounts are the seamy underbelly of the warranty industry. For example, when one buys a car and is offered a warranty, it's often in the name of national contract company such as Fidelity. What the fine print states is that Fidelity is simply the contract administrator. The several-thousand-dollar premium is held in an account by Fidelity on behalf of dealership's owner, and Fidelity processes any claims, drawing against that account. If there are no claims made by the end of the warranty term, Fidelity sends the owner a check for the premium amount, less sales commissions and admin fees. These accounts get to be gigantic over the years. Some seemingly small family-owned dealers have retroactive payouts from the reserve accounts to family members are in the millions of dollars a quarter.

Imagine an extremely modest reserve of $5,000 per unit for a Nautique. If we multiply that by twenty boats a week, that's $100,000 a week in reserves. Roughly $5MM a year for Nautique. What about the other brands under the company umbrella?

When their warranty payout process relies on one guy at the expense of customer relationships, it's clear they're in it for the money. He's the gatekeeper and the choke point for those reserve accounts. That's what makes him valuable. They'll find another customer. They always do. But that guy isn't going anywhere, and his process isn't changing. If you want better service, it won't be at another dealer, it'll be with another brand.

[scottb7]

My buddy has a malibu and the particular malibu dealer he used here in minnesota made him pay for the warranty work which was like $5k, and only reimbursed him after indmar paid them.

[Renegrub]

I've spent the entirety of my professional career working in or with automotive dealership service departments, and have seen all manners of manufacturer warranty processes. No process that I've encountered is as cumbersome as Nautique's.

Manufacturers trusts their dealers to represent them and their product because a dealership acts as an agent of the manufacturer. This is true not only in sales, but in service. Manufacturers trust that a dealer's manufacturer-trained technician, using manufacturer-defined procedures, can diagnose and repair a vehicle, getting that customer back on the road. Timely local service by a national brand. That's what franchising is all about. Except to Nautique.

Nautique only trusts their dealers to sell the boats. When it comes to repairing them, they don't trust their dealers. In a normal operation, a technician diagnoses a problem, ascertains whether or not it's covered by the warranty, and if it is, orders a new part. The new part arrives, the technician installs it, the vehicle is given to the customer, and the manufacturer is billed for the repair.

Nautique requires the issue be diagnosed, and a warranty claim be submitted and approved prior to them even sending parts. This adds incredible delays. I needed three ballast sensors, and a fuel injector for a 2019 boat that I bought new in 2020. After a week of not hearing anything from the dealer, I called and they told me they're beholden to a guy named 'Ron'. The dealer was told that PCM didn't have an injector. When I mentioned that it's a GM L86 injector, and the local dealer had it in stock, I was told all they can do is send an email to Ron and ask him to expedite the claim.

Another week went by and after I was told that Nautique wouldn't even send the parts for me to buy the parts over the counter, I called Ron again. He didn't pick up the phone or call me back, but he was gracious enough to ship the ballast sensors and authorize the dealership to buy an injector locally.

However, he was stingy enough to not authorize a set of intake manifold gaskets, which are not reusable. On an LS motor, the gaskets flatten out and allow air in when you reuse them. Everyone knew this. The technician working on the boat knew it. I knew it. Ron knew it.

After putting the engine back together, the air leak triggered a CEL, and only then was a new set of gaskets authorized. That was on a Thursday. The new gaskets were sent Friday and received Monday. Nautique's failure to trust their technician and rolling of the dice with my repair cost me another weekend with my family.

All told, I lost a significant portion of my summer to Nautique's idiotic bureaucracy. They don't care about that. They also don't care about the adversarial relationship it creates between customers and their dealers. What Nautique cares about is the money.

When a manufacturer makes and sells a widget, they typically set aside money from the production of each unit in anticipation of any defects in that unit converting to claims made against the warranty. That money is called a reserve. If your widget is a basketball hoop the reserve set-asides are practically non-existent. When your widget is a six-figure boat, the reserve set-asides are significant.

The reserve accounts are the seamy underbelly of the warranty industry. For example, when one buys a car and is offered a warranty, it's often in the name of national contract company such as Fidelity. What the fine print states is that Fidelity is simply the contract administrator. The several-thousand-dollar premium is held in an account by Fidelity on behalf of dealership's owner, and Fidelity processes any claims, drawing against that account. If there are no claims made by the end of the warranty term, Fidelity sends the owner a check for the premium amount, less sales commissions and admin fees. These accounts get to be gigantic over the years. Some seemingly small family-owned dealers have retroactive payouts from the reserve accounts to family members are in the millions of dollars a quarter.

Imagine an extremely modest reserve of $5,000 per unit for a Nautique. If we multiply that by twenty boats a week, that's $100,000 a week in reserves. Roughly $5MM a year for Nautique. What about the other brands under the company umbrella?

When their warranty payout process relies on one guy at the expense of customer relationships, it's clear they're in it for the money. He's the gatekeeper and the choke point for those reserve accounts. That's what makes him valuable. They'll find another customer. They always do. But that guy isn't going anywhere, and his process isn't changing. If you want better service, it won't be at another dealer, it'll be with another brand.

Thank you for sharing. Very interesting. I wish that were my problem with my existing dealer. My issue is they don't respond. I also think part of their issue is they only have one Nautique service guy and he is at another location so it means it is a pain in the butt for them to service my boat. That is just my hunch. But taking three or more emails, etc to get them to respond is unfortunately just another layer on top the painful process you are describing above.

[jtryon]

well said, Smindustries

[bird_dog0347]

About a year ago we started to do demos of different boats knowing we would order a new one last fall. I had a 2007 Supra 24 SSV that I bought new and it was time to upgrade, but I wasn't liking the looks/style/layout of the Supra boats. I knew I wanted a top brand, and Nautique was at the top of my list of what I liked. We demoed the G23 first, then a M240, then the G23 Paragon, all 2021 models. (spoiler alert, got the Paragon and LOVE it)

I was a tiny bit disappointed in the G23 wave to be honest, I don't know what I was expecting in my head but I just thought it would be.... more? I really liked the boat overall, and some of the features I LOVED like the cooler in the floor, the trash can opening in the walkway, the ease of use for the NSS/NCRS (My supra had bags on the floor and seats to get a good wave) as well as the fully sub-floor ballast.

Next was the M240, The first thing I thought about this boat was that I liked the design/layout of the G23 better, it just "felt" better. The M240 was great, but there were just things I liked better about the G23, such as the dash, tower, trash can and cooler locations, and sea deck on the top of the rear seat as a step down as opposed to the flip down seat backs. One thing I did love about the M240 was the wave, especially after the G23, it was outstanding and honestly would have made me look past the things I preferred about the G23. It did seem pretty inefficient when it comes to fuel though, tons of power, drives great, but the wedge kills the fuel consumption. The M240 had like 10 hours on it and one of the tower speakers (Wetsounds) was already sounding blown or incorrectly tuned... it was bad. The surf select on the Malibu is far better integrated and very useful, I wish my remote was that good on the Nautique (and I don't want to have to buy a watch and fumble through the interface on it).

I also looked at the M220 that was at the dealer (no demo) but immediately ruled it out when I boarded the boat and had to watch my head on the tower/speakers/Bimini and I'm only 5'11", so if you're tall beware of that. There were other things I didn't like as much either, but that was an immediate nope for me as it just felt cramped.

Next up was the G23 Paragon, this thing took everything I liked about the G23 and turned it up to 11. The wave is about 95% as good as the M240 wave IMO, still giving the edge to the Malibu but just barely and I think it's just a personal preference thing. Both waves are outstanding right out of the box. The Paragon though has a MUCH better interior, MUCH better dash, light years better tower and bimini, and IMO is a far better looking boat from the outside especially with the gel coat patterns. The Stereo on the Paragon is also much better/cleaner/louder than the M240 with the top stereo they offer. And finally, the rear loungers, I absolutely love them and sit in them quite a bit while the kids are swimming or running down the beach where we are anchored.