The pricing of the S23 makes no sense to me

[charlesml3]

Gang,

I have a 2022 G23 on order. It's already in the system. I've loved the 230 for years and would have been thrilled to see Nautique redesign it but that didn't happen. Instead, we got the S23. It may be fine, but it's just too ugly and too close in price to the G23. Here's what I found:

I ordered a pretty heavily optioned G23. Not every single option, but a lot of them. I took the order sheet for my G23 and went into DYN and put a S23 together that was as close as I could get it to the G. When it was done, the MSRP price difference was just under $8000.

The problem here is it's difficult to get a real comparison. The stereo options aren't nearly the same. Even if you go into the stereo options and pick everything for the S23, you're not getting nearly as much as the G. Then there's the engine. The G comes standard with the 6.2DI. The S23 comes with the 6.0. If you specify the 6.2DI for the S23 it adds a whopping $11,000 to the cost. So what's the fair comparison? The G with it's standard engine against the S with it's standard engine? Or is it the same engine specified in both? What about the stereo? There's no way to compare unless you trim down the one in the G to get it as close to "maxed out" on the S. Is that fair?

In my comparison with the 6.2DI on both boats, the $8000 difference is really just the stereo. If I look at the costs of the individual options I added to the G, it's about $8000 more than the fully configured stereo on the S23.

The only way the S23 makes sense is if you can live with the lower-level stereo AND the 6.0L engine. Then you're coming in at $19K under the G. Outside of that, there is no real price difference in these two boats.

-Charles

[GMLIII]

Helpful write up Charles

[AdamUCF]

Yeah I just don't understand it. Did they try to hit a lower price point and fail? It's crazy that they had a 35% price increase from one model to the other. There's no way they are going after the same market with that. So who is the S23 buyer? What is the differentiation? 2" narrower beam? It's hardly a "traditional bow" so I don't think that selling point works either.

[shag]

That new boat is just fugly, imo... But I will never be able to afford a new boat anymore.. Kudos to those who are successful enough to acquire these new boats.

[mgs917]

I am also confused on the S series pricing as well. If you do exact options in a S21 and S23 they are roughly 10k difference? Seems very close together to me. Also, S23<GS24 but the S21>GS22. I thought after looking at all MSRP prior to S21 release the S21 would be around 135-140K. I wonder how nautique came to the msrp of the S21?

Furthermore, there are a lot of 2019-2020 G23's on onlyinboard and FB marketplace listed for less than a S23. So you can get a 1-2 year old boat (2-3 model year) for cheaper than the S. So if you were looking to save a little money on a G you could find a nice used one and still save 10-15k over some of the S boats.

My thoughts on base pricing S21 135k, S23 147k

[doug69]

I priced out the s23 here in Canada. Well above 2x what I paid for my 230 5 years ago and very close in price to a new g23. Hard no for me. Maybe I’m in the minority but I’m taking a stand against these ridiculous price increases. I, for one, surely don’t make 2x the salary I made 5 years ago…. And if I could afford one it would be g23 all day long. I don’t know who would save $10k and get the s23. I like nautique but kinda hope the S fails horribly and they come back with something In my budget.


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[bturner]

I don't see new boat pricing retreating without removal of content. I predict the market will soften and boat companies will do what they've done at least 3 times during my boating life. They'll create a "value" model, de-content it which will give them a way out of the crazy bandit pricing we're seeing now then slowly move the price up again. Rinse and repeat.

This is nothing new just another cycle. What is new is, or at least will be is surf ships aging out in an era of increasing gas pricing and electronics that will be failing that cost near the price of an engine to repair. The other issue I see that could create a perfect storm is the direction the current administration has taken us with oil and natural gas. If you haven't been watching you'll be in for a surprise this winter with heating bills and at the pump when you go to fill these boats up next summer. Don't think so? CA and NY are already seeing near $5 gallon gas. Probably not a big deal for anyone who is buying a new G but that secondary used market is much more price sensitive to both the boat and operating costs.

IDK boys, I think I'm going to hold on to that little 200 Sport a bit longer.

[mgs917]

bturner makes a good point about creating a value boat. The 2022 S series essentially costs what a G went for two to three years ago. I love how there are price increases every year, but when there is truly a materials and supply chain issue they need to increase the price even more to account for that. So all the previous model year increases were essentially to grease the pockets because other consumer goods weren't increasing at that rate year after year. Look at the G; MSRP 100k 2013, 2022 189k. Nautique has made some improvements but 89% price increase improvements? Take away inflation and I still don't see any reasonable explanation for that kind of increase other than they can because they still have buyers lining up.

[jjackkrash]

Take away inflation and I still don't see any reasonable explanation for that kind of increase other than they can because they still have buyers lining up.

Is there any other reason needed? If they have a line and limited build slots, a price hike seems like an obvious decision to me.

[mooneywa]

Gang,

I have a 2022 G23 on order. It's already in the system. I've loved the 230 for years and would have been thrilled to see Nautique redesign it but that didn't happen. Instead, we got the S23. It may be fine, but it's just too ugly and too close in price to the G23. Here's what I found:

I ordered a pretty heavily optioned G23. Not every single option, but a lot of them. I took the order sheet for my G23 and went into DYN and put a S23 together that was as close as I could get it to the G. When it was done, the MSRP price difference was just under $8000.

The problem here is it's difficult to get a real comparison. The stereo options aren't nearly the same. Even if you go into the stereo options and pick everything for the S23, you're not getting nearly as much as the G. Then there's the engine. The G comes standard with the 6.2DI. The S23 comes with the 6.0. If you specify the 6.2DI for the S23 it adds a whopping $11,000 to the cost. So what's the fair comparison? The G with it's standard engine against the S with it's standard engine? Or is it the same engine specified in both? What about the stereo? There's no way to compare unless you trim down the one in the G to get it as close to "maxed out" on the S. Is that fair?

In my comparison with the 6.2DI on both boats, the $8000 difference is really just the stereo. If I look at the costs of the individual options I added to the G, it's about $8000 more than the fully configured stereo on the S23.

The only way the S23 makes sense is if you can live with the lower-level stereo AND the 6.0L engine. Then you're coming in at $19K under the G. Outside of that, there is no real price difference in these two boats.

-Charles

Great write up. I can't figure it out either.

Furthermore, the 230 does great with the stock ZR4. How well? Well enough that my dealer talked me out of spending $10k on the upgrade to the ZZ6 and I haven't been remotely disappointed. However, the S23 is almost 1000lbs or roughly 20% heavier than the 230 so I doubt I'd be as happy and even less happy with a full boat of people, max ballast, and trying to get on plane wakeboarding (that's where I see the limit of the ZR4).

$19k under the G still just doesn't seem worthwhile. The difference between my 230 and a reasonably equipped G of that same year was closer to $60k. I have a very difficult time seeing $40k of improvement between the 230 and S23. Of course the interior is fancier, perhaps taller freeboard, some improvements to the surf (...maybe?)... but that $40k doesn't even get you a better engine. The hull design is certainly updated, but I don't think it's universally appealing.

I'm honestly really surprised at how far Nautique missed the mark on the package. Did someone in the marketing team say "there is this massive untapped group of people who want a G but a traditional bow and this will bring them in!?" I was really thinking they'd update the hull to reflect some design themes from the new Ski Nautique with some updates on the interior, and some improvements on storage and surf. $10-15k in price increase. I'd have been pretty interested in the upgrade, but I am absolutely not interested in the S23.

I love my 230 and don't see parting with it in the near term, but if I had to, I don't know that there is anything in the new Nautique lineup that I'd really want. Maybe the GS? Maybe a pre-'21 G? I'd probably shop Tige as their prices haven't blown out of control and I see more and more of them on my lake, QC issues notwithstanding.

[99bison]

G probably going way up in price next year for material costs, maybe already have that built /locked into S pricing… so difference maybe 30k instead of 10k by next spring. Just a thought.

[mgs917]

Is there any other reason needed? If they have a line and limited build slots, a price hike seems like an obvious decision to me.

Just because you have buyers lining up doesnt mean people can actually afford these boats. Look at the college bubble with loans. The federal government gave away loans like candy so colleges just increased tuition year after year. I know some people pay cash or have the assets to pay off the boat if needed, but I see a lot of discussion on the boat forums and FB discussing 20 year loans. Max boat loan should be 8-10 years IMHO. And, I think that would limit some of the ridiculous prices we are seeing.

[jjackkrash]

Nautique sells boats to dealers. Dealers sell boats to customers who can come up with the purchase price. Neither Nautique nor the dealers act as financial advisors to their customers and they don't set government fiscal or monetary policies or set lending standards. They sell boats for market prices and as long as there is a line of buyers and limited product the prices will go up. If boats are sitting around on lots not selling (for whatever reason) prices will go down or they will go out of business. If the bubble pops or fiscal policy tightens you might get your wish.

I would say, looking around, I would consider the possibility that the prices are not ridiculous, it is that your fiat money is worth less and is becoming worthless as the money printer go burrrr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1hCLBTD5RM

[mgs917]

Jjackkrash, you make some good points. Honest question (this is not rhetorical or sarcasm), you stated the market is driving the prices due to buyers and limited supply. So my suggestion was to limit loan terms to 10 years. Wouldn’t this decrease demand and help curb price increases to an extent?

[jjackkrash]

I am not a big fan of putting artificial limits on markets (like limiting loan terms that the market wants and that banks are willing to provide). But I do think the flood of free money is a problem and big contributor to price inflation. If interest rates normalize and the supply chain recovers, the demand for boats and the price is going to drop to more normal levels, IMO.