Zero Off For Older Nautiques -- Litigation

[TBMsNautique]

Very interesting discussion that prompted me to call PP. Had a terrific discussion with one of the engineers who walked me through the not insignficant benefits of the combination paddle wheel and GPS system -- Star Gazer. He said the current model PW and GPS work hand-in-glove to make certain the responsiveness of the boat is in harmony with the conditions underway.

To be honest, I was very impressed with the level of engineering that goes into testing and retesting of PP products. The guy with whom I spoke did comment on the litigation, saying that resolution should provide some needed clarity to the marketplace fairly soon.

In "reading between the lines" I expect the GPS portion of Star Gazer will be more pronounced, once the competition hammers out a workable solution, but it will still work somewhat in concert with the paddle wheel.

Given my aversion to drilling a big hole in the bottom of my beautiful boat, he reminded me that manufacturers and dealers have and will continue to do this for many, many years. Somewhat comforted...

I was advised to call PP back in a couple of months to see where the Star Gazer system is with respect to testing and litigation resolution. Given this conversation, I'm now leaning back to the PP system given the apparent redundancy throughout the overall system.

After asking the "wife dilemma" question, he did say the new GPS is infinitely more "intuitive" than past iterations. Makin' progress!

Thanks for all the great comments.

[scoke]

Given my aversion to drilling a big hole in the bottom of my beautiful boat, he reminded me that manufacturers and dealers have and will continue to do this for many, many years.

Where do you live? I'll drill it for you! Yellow_Flash_Colorz:


Seriously though, have you gotten under a boat that has one installed, stuck your head in the bilge as far as you could and checked things out? The PP hole is relatively small.

Like anything, start small and take your time.

I have driven/Skied both Stargazer and Zero Off. As far as an unknown user driving, piece of cake. As you gear up, you go over and adjust to your speed and go. That could even be the case for PP digi pro too. Hear the beep, let it takeover.

[mattoz]

I am based in Brisbane, Australia. I do think there is some bugs in the Zero OFF code too, this maybe contributing to the issues I have experienced. When the 3rd or 4th rider hits the water ( 1 - 2 hours of boat operation) this is when the Zero Off speed control can also lose its head.

I have also experienced the satellite drop out under bridges, in parts our river there are many bridges that cause issues. Not much you can do about that though. Receiving GPS signals in challenging terrain (around tall buildings, canyons & pits etc...) is a well known problem. In the future we maybe using WiMax based wireless cell / mobile technology to control our boat speed. Mining companies are moving towards WiMax as they implement automation of mobile machinery on mine sites.

The GPS speed control is great for tournaments. Nautique tows the Moomba event in Melbourne Australia on a tidal river, so the system will be great for that event; However, for the river based wakeboarding events that I am involved with, Zero Off will be turned off.

Am I chasing the holy grail for speed control, yep, so please don’t take by comments as being too negative! I hope either Zero Off or PP implement the PW/GPS in their their 09 models. I hope that CC supports this product improvement!

[mattoz]

I just read the info about the PP star gazer, looks good! I fully appreciate the effort PP has taken to invest in this product.

[NautiqueJeff]

Word on the street is that there is a code update for ZO coming soon that may address the complaints about ZO usage in rivers.

[east tx skier]

Very interesting discussion that prompted me to call PP. Had a terrific discussion with one of the engineers who walked me through the not insignficant benefits of the combination paddle wheel and GPS system -- Star Gazer. He said the current model PW and GPS work hand-in-glove to make certain the responsiveness of the boat is in harmony with the conditions underway.

To be honest, I was very impressed with the level of engineering that goes into testing and retesting of PP products. The guy with whom I spoke did comment on the litigation, saying that resolution should provide some needed clarity to the marketplace fairly soon.

In "reading between the lines" I expect the GPS portion of Star Gazer will be more pronounced, once the competition hammers out a workable solution, but it will still work somewhat in concert with the paddle wheel.

Given my aversion to drilling a big hole in the bottom of my beautiful boat, he reminded me that manufacturers and dealers have and will continue to do this for many, many years. Somewhat comforted...

I was advised to call PP back in a couple of months to see where the Star Gazer system is with respect to testing and litigation resolution. Given this conversation, I'm now leaning back to the PP system given the apparent redundancy throughout the overall system.

After asking the "wife dilemma" question, he did say the new GPS is infinitely more "intuitive" than past iterations. Makin' progress!

Thanks for all the great comments.

In reading this, it sounds like you're saying that Perfect Pass is waiting for litigation to be resolved before it evolves its system to be more like Zero Off (that is, less reliant on the paddle wheel for direct speed input). The way I understand the litigation, having read the demand letter PP sent econtrols and econrols petition for declaratory judgment, the nature of this litigation is to seek a determination as to whether econtrols's device (ZO) infringes on PP's patent from 1997. So I think the resolution of the litigation goes more toward the zero off system being available for the older wired boats than what PP is doing relative to the developments econtrols has inovated. If I've misread what you're read is on this, please disregard.

[TBMsNautique]

I'm not an attorney. During the call, I got the feeling that PP was leaning towards more integration with GPS, but only after there was clarity with respect to what they can and cannot do. From my non-attorney vantage point, it appears that ZO was first to the game and PP wants in on the action. PP is the clear incumbent in speed control and I suspect they want to be certain market share doesn't suffer if a conversion to GPS takes hold. The strong letter to ZO might have been the proverbial shot across the bow of an emerging competitor. Just my random thoughts. Of course, when competition intensifies, the end result is better products and better pricing. All good...

[east tx skier]

I haven't spoken with anyone at PP, so I don't have a clue as to what their take on it is. All I know is from the documents I've read. The way the litigation is postured is PP's lawyer sent a letter to econtrols asking them to explain how their design doesn't run afoul of PP's 1997 patent (patents generally have a 20 yr lifespan from filing date with certain exceptions). Econtrols's suit is seeking a declaration from the federal court in San Antonio as to whether its design violates PP's patent.

As for whatever patents econtrols has over its system and how PP's new system jives with that, I don't know how they're lined up there. This is the only lawsuit between the two companies I've seen. The two systems seem very different just reading about them. I'm looking forward to getting stargazer soon (shouldn't be too long until it's available).

[jjackkrash]

I checked on PACER (the electronic federal court filing system), and so far, only a complaint and answer have been filed. There isn't even a scheduling order entered yet and the parties haven't even had the initial scheduling and discovery conference. This means that the litigation is just getting started and, unless they decide to settle, there won't be a final decision on the patent dispute for some time. So don't hold your breath waiting for the court to rule on anything.

[TBMsNautique]

I checked the U.S. Patent Office and found the actual PP patent issued in December of 1997 -- makes for an interesting read:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2 FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=4&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=%22perfec t+pass%22&OS="perfect+pass"&RS="perfect+pass"

The patent is based squarely on the actuator system that controls the throttle. My guess (again, I'm no attorney) is that ZO's anticipated system, while using GPS in lieu of a paddle wheel or RPM, may use a similar actuator that infringes on PP's patent. This actuator clearly applies to the older, non DBW, engines which apparently is why ZO has not retrofitted its products for older boats (like mine).

This seems to confirm PP's strategy to send a warning signal to ZO about designing an actuator similar to what PP has for mechanical throttle cables. What remains unclear to me is why PP is hesitant to fully endorse GPS as its standard. Mabye PP just wants to achieve success in limiting ZO to DBW systems before it embraces GPS on the older, mechanical systems? As jjackkrash said above, this may take quite a long time to resolve...

[M3Fan]

What's wrong with PP using the paddlewheel and GPS in tandem? To me it seems like a more redundant and dominant system over straight GPS. The GPS portion of the system merely calibrates the paddlewheel in real time. What's wrong with that? Maybe I'm missing something.

[east tx skier]

I checked on PACER (the electronic federal court filing system), and so far, only a complaint and answer have been filed. There isn't even a scheduling order entered yet and the parties haven't even had the initial scheduling and discovery conference. This means that the litigation is just getting started and, unless they decide to settle, there won't be a final decision on the patent dispute for some time. So don't hold your breath waiting for the court to rule on anything.

I think there was (it has been a few months) a date scheduled for PP to respond to econtrols's complaint, wasn't there? But yes, there wasn't much there when I looked either and it'll be a while before it's resolved. Should've filed in east TX for the rocket docket.

As far as why doesn't PP throw it all into GPS, if I'm not mistaken, they worked on that many years ago and opted for the rpm based system for better consistence.

I agree with Joel. I don't see a problem with using GPS to check and adjust a paddlewheel, which is giving instant feedback of speed to a proven rpm based system. PP has market share. And Zero Off is doing well at providing much needed competition with its system, which from all I've heard is a good one. I'm glad to see PP improving rather than reinventing, especially since it means that my PP system can be upgraded for a few hundred $$ rather than my having to consider buying a whole new system. And I'll emphasize that that's want, not need in my case. But the line continually becomes more blurred.

[CAN'TSKI]

I have been using SIRIUS satellite radio for a couple of years. Unless this ZO satellite technology is different, the last thing I want is that type of inconsistent signal controlling the speed of my boat. When the signal goes in and out (as the satellite radio on my boat often does), what happens? I have found in the 211, if you use the wakeboard mode instead of messing around with the slalom mode, the PP works great. As long as I make aggressive turns re-entering the course, the speed drop is not an issue with the skier. That said, any skier that can run the course at under 30 behind a 211 probably doesn't whine about many things.

[Fast351]

Zero off looks like a good system for running slalom courses. That's probably it's strong suit. As for wakeboarding, I suppose if you're on a lake with no current it probably works fine.

More than 1/2 of my boating hours are spent on the Mississippi river though. We have anywhere from 2-5 MPH current depending on runoff. For us, the Perfect Pass works great. Judging by how sensitive the surf wake is to speed (a .3 MPH difference, the smallest adjustment on the PP, makes a noticable difference in wake shape) I can't imagine how the Zero Off system would work well for me.

Fortunately it appears that Correct Craft still gives you a choice on new boats, although by default the speed control is Zero Off.

It will be interesting to see how they overcome current. I don't see a way to do it without a paddle wheel, but then there are probably some very smart engineers at Zero Off.

[ag4ever]

When I upgrade my speed system or even get a new boat, I will be looking at the stargazer system as it has the most of what I want. It runs off the actual speed of the boat and then uses the SAT to stabilize that speed. Not the other way around.

I want my speed input to be first off of the sensors on the boat and second off a satelite telling me where I am.

Now for slow moving items that critical speed control is not an issue (mining or construction) the sats are great. But nobody cares if a piece of construction equipment varies it's speed by 1-2 mph all the time. If I am at the end of a rope, I do care.