Zero Off For Older Nautiques -- Litigation

[TBMsNautique]

I have been tirelessly working to get an answer from Zero Off on the ability to purchase their GPS product on my 2000 SS. It's snowing where I sit and I'd like to get this done so as not to take time away from the water! I have received no response from the company after repeated attempts. I recently discovered from a local dealer and after a bit of time searching the internet that Perfect Pass is being sued by Zero Off, likely regarding retrofit ability (see the paragraph below I copied from a web site).

Given how the U.S. litigation system works, I suspect it may be 2009 or beyond before I can get a GPS system on my boat... If anyone has any thoughts, please let me know. I'm not interested in Star Gazer -- much too complex and I still need to drill a hole in the bottom of my boat...

EControls, Inc. v. Perfect Pass Control Systems, Inc. (W.D. Tex. 2007- pending). JW represents EControls in this declaratory judgment action against a Canadian company regarding boat speed controllers used in competitive water skiing and slalom events. After receiving a threatening letter from the patent holder, EControls filed suit to quickly resolve the dispute. Discovery is ongoing.

[sstexan]

I put pp in my boat 6 onths ago. Zero off told me my boat had to fbw(fly by wire) in order to work. My pp has worked flawlessly in my ss w gt 40. Good luck!

[MHayes]

Re: Zero Off For Older Nautiques -- Litigation

I have been tirelessly working to get an answer from Zero Off on the ability to purchase their GPS product on my 2000 SS.

You've got to be kidding, right? Tirelessly? I went to the Zero Off website, looked up the number, called it and a guy answered within 2 rings.

Anyway, I asked him about when they think they'd be able to have it for the older, non drive by wire boats, and he couldn't provide me an answer except to say that it would be a long time (sounded like years from our conversation). One thing is that their system can only work with certain ECMs and second, he said that the manufacturers were pressuring them to make sure the newer models boats are covered before they worry about the older ones. He said that they are currently working with 6 manufacturers and are just totally swamped.

Sorry for the bad news, but it just sounds like that's the way it is! Like the guy at Zero Off said when I told him it looks like I'll have to use the competitor's product, sounds like you need a new boat :grin:

[TBMsNautique]

RE: Re: Zero Off For Older Nautiques -- Litigation

Looks like you had much better luck than me -- no answers, no return calls and no return emails. I'll just have to wait and my wife will continue to be white-knuckled when she drives... Thanks.

[rbalan]

RE: Re: Zero Off For Older Nautiques -- Litigation

TBM, that sounds like my wife.

It would be nice to see another company jump in the market. I would think there would be a huge market for speed control in older boats.

[chris196]

RE: Re: Zero Off For Older Nautiques -- Litigation

TBM,
I have a 1998 196 with a GT40. It has perfect pass, but no paddle wheel. I'm not even sure of the version, but it's an older version without the paddle wheel. It works great for slalom. I don't have experience with other systems or verison of PP, so maybe I'm just ignorant to it's flaws. But, if all you want is speed control for slalom without doing record setting runs, it works fine.
I have the same situation. My wife is my primary driver. She loves the PP. All she has to do is work the throttle to pull me up, then just worry about keeping the boat straight. We've had I/Os before with trim and she comments how much easier the nautique is to drive.

My point is there is a system out there that will work without putting a hole in your boat. Not sure if it's available any more or not.

[MHayes]

RE: Re: Zero Off For Older Nautiques -- Litigation

chris196, I'm guessing that your PP is just based on the engine RPMs. I can see how it would be OK if you slalom, but couldn't imagine it working that well in a boat weighted for wakeboarding. I could be wrong though.

[east tx skier]

Yep, Econtrols (ZO) and Perfect Pass are litigating PP's 1997 patent, which involves servo control for the throttle cable. As of a couple of months ago, that suit was still in the early stages. So as mentioned, I'd expect it would be a while.

Chris, what you describe sounds like what they used to call "Perfect Pass Plus." Basically, it was what is now "Digital Pro," but without the paddle wheel. While that package doesn't seem to exist anymore, you can still order DP and just not install the paddle wheel. You may still be able to order an a la carte system from PP. For wakeboarding, with PP, you want speed based, which means paddle wheel speedo. Very painless to have your dealer drill the hole and install the paddle wheel if you're like me and don't have the stomach for drilling holes in the boat.

I emailed PP the other day and got an email that, depending on the boat (not sure what that means), the upgrade package is anticipated to be available to order the first week of February.

Do I need it? No. Will I order it? You bet!

[chris196]

Yes, Perfect Pass Plus, that's what it is. Couldn't remember off the top of my head.
It is certainly RPM based. It does have a wakeboard mode, but I've never used it.

[Kozmo]

ets - I feel the same way about the Stargazer upgrade package. I do not need it but just gots to have it :-)

[TBMsNautique]

Re: RE: Re: Zero Off For Older Nautiques -- Litigation

TBM, that sounds like my wife.

It would be nice to see another company jump in the market. I would think there would be a huge market for speed control in older boats.

You bet! It seems like the PP systems are quite advanced and technical when all I need is for my wife to floor it and then simply hit a button just like on the car. Then, she can just look forward and drive -- and I'll get to ski much more! I don't mind the advanced systems but if it's not easy to use and very intuitive, my wife won't use it...

The other problem is I have two boys (ages 8 and 10) and they love to slalom -- aren't interested in wakeboarding. Of course, that may change so I'd like a system that's fairly versatile. The GPS Zero off doesn't require drilling a hole in the botton of the boat and it can be used for both slalom and wakeboarding. Looks like I just need to sit back and wait until the suit gets resolved...

Like you said, given the widespread use of GPS, I hope someone else gets into the market quickly.

[east tx skier]

I can really sympathize with the scenario of a wife/driver not being interested in learning how to navigate the PP menus with the somewhat less than intuitive controls. PP does have a basic cruise that is almost identical in usability to a car cruise control. That is, you get it up to whatever speed you like, you hit the button, and it sets. After that, when you're under way, it looks for the last set point and holds it. "Perfect Pass cruise" runs about $650. Would probably be fine for open water skiing. But for wakeboarding, something speed based is apparently preferable.

[mattoz]

I have had a “bee in my bonnet” for a while now about Zero off, I hope you don’t mind if I unload a little in this topic.

Firstly though, in the interest of contributing to this topic, IMHO the GPS is the best speed control method for older boats. I do like the concept and dream of less holes in a boat hull. I hope the litigation does not distract the manufacturers from continuing their crucial product development work.

OK, here I go…

After a few months of use, my thoughts about the new Zero Off for wakeboarding use are mixed. This is mostly due to my experiences with a 08 nautique in a tidal river.

Zero Off GPS speed control system does not appear to compensate for a flowing body of water. I have to offset the speed setpoint to counter rivers current. i.e when travelling with the river current I have to increase the speed setpoint, when travelling against the river flow I have to decrease the speed setpoint. The maximum value I have had to offset the speed setpoint to date has been + and -3mph of the desired speed across the water.

A change in boat speed across the water also occurs when the river bends, narrows, widens or depth significantly changes - all factors that change the rivers flow characteristics. This Zero Off issue can be especially painful when I drive a short section of the river or when doing double ups. It is just easier to drive the boat without it.

My experience with Zero Off on a dam/lake water way have been good; but I have experienced some satellite drop out events. When a satellite drop out occurs, Zero Off appears to hold the throttle position until such time the signal is recovered. This means speed control gets out of wack when you have a changing rider load. After ~ 10sec with out a satellite signal, Zero Off display defaults into RPM mode.

On some occasions Zero Off has not been able to recover from a satellite drop out event and the speed begins to cycle (engine hunting sometimes followed by speed windup -integral windup). The cyclic changes can also occur when you travel across a long set of boat rollers – moving in the same direction as the boat. The boats throttle response can get out of phase with the loading of the boat as it travels up and down a roller. On some occasions I have had to stop the boat because speed control does not stop this cycle when it has moved into smoother water.

Please let me know if I have not set up Zero Off correctly? Does Zero Off have a code update available yet? The emails I have sent to Zero Off have gone without reply…hello Zero Off, anybody there!! Do you care!!

With all this said, I have also been disappointed with the performance of the Perfect Pass drive by wire system; However, to date the best boat speed control system I have experienced is the old Perfect Pass system that used the stepper motor actuator – last seen in the 2005 models. It always worked well - provided that the stepper motor bearings did not seize.

If Perfect Pass and/or Zero Off implement the GPS speed control coupled with the paddle wheel that corrects for changing water flow conditions ( i.e a flowing river), I think the system has the potential to be a all round winner. Use of the newer model GPS receivers that also have a higher satellite pick up number may also give better speed control. Let’s hope that the Product Engineers don’t get replaced by Lawyers.

[NautiqueJeff]

Where are you located? I have only had one instance of ZO losing the satellites, and that was while driving under a bridge.

I totally understand the issues with current on a river, but keep in mind that the ZO system is designed with tournaments in mind, and in tournaments current IS NOT taken into account when determining speed. Speed is judged as the time it takes to get from fixed point A to fixed point B, regardless of water flow. I know that doesn't really help your situation...

[Quinner]

Had the PP Cruise on my 99', no paddle wheel, currently on the 05' have the Pro version with paddle wheel, no experience with the GPS. It really appears there is no perfect solution out there. In my case, on a small private lake, typical run is straight line and a teardrop turn back down your old line, no currents, some weed issues.
The RPM based system; worked but needed help, slowed too much on turns, after turns required a click or 2 up/dn to return to proper speed, this system worked much better on lakes/rivers with long straight runs. Not a bad solution if you are not willing to add a PW, it will require some tweaking (click the up/dn arrow while looking at speedos) while underway or your speed may vary, still better than manual.
Paddle Wheel system; no complaints, if speedos clog you still have the PW speed display, holds fairly well on the turnarounds sometimes over throttles slightly just before you get back to your line, corrects rather quickly however. For non TBW boats, particularly wife or novice driver applications, it really does a great job and makes driving more just holding a line after the speed control takes over.

Definitely agree a combined PW/GPS system could potentially get you to something that works for all applications.