E-10 fuel problem i think

[horkn]

Just wanted to share an experience. early this year, I had to have a fuel pump (inside the FCC) replaced due to severe corrosion. The boat (05 SAN) had just ran out of warranty (about 10 hrs and a few months past) when I had the boat in and serviced. I had been noticing a fuel smell and also had occasional problems with and what I would describe as occasional fuel related hesitation on acceleration.
PCM agreed to warranty the pump (excellent warranty service) and seemed to come to a conclusion that ethanol in the fuel caused excessive moisture to collect in the FCC, causing the corrosion and problem I was having. Keep in mind that I used ethanol stabil and still had this problem.
I can't explain why some people have no problems whatsoever and others like myself have bad experiences with ethanol. I just can't seem to understand why we are making engines less efficient..... And gas costs are even higher now than before. I thought that was one of the reasons for going to ethanol-that it would be cheaper at the pump.
Take care and be safe!

I hate to say it, but this sounds like another case of ethanol being the scape goat as well.

I've never heard of a fuel pump going bad directly due to ethanol, maybe because the pre filter got clogged and made the pump run hot, but that isn't really an ethanol caused issue. Granted the FCC is a specific marine and PCM thing, and cars don't have a set up like this, but still that does not make sense to me unless the quality of the pump was not the best to begin with.

I am happy PCM replaced it under warranty though.

Without E10 gas, our fuel costs would be even higher. Also, you can make more power out of ethanol than gas, but since it burns differently, it tends to get less mpg, albeit VERY slightly. The rate that engines are getting more and more efficient will negate any side effects of the minimally lower mpg from ethanol compared to straight dinsosaur juice.

[AirTool]

Also, you can make more power out of ethanol than gas,....

If the "gas" you are referring to is gasoline, You are 100% wrong.

[NAUTIQUE-210]

e-10 problem i think

ok guys did a fuel pressure check this is what i got out of the fuel rail with the valve on the end( sitting in the boat looking at the rear, right fuel rail) took the valve thred out and screwed my gauge on

just turn key (reds) 39psi

ideling 38psi

2000rpm 30psi

3000psi 30psi

then back to idel 33psi stop restart again 33psi never went back to 39psi, only when turned off and reds on back to 39psi

and yes this was without the prop spinning not in gear.
what you think ???????????????

[DanielC]

That looks about right. The fuel pressure is influenced by manifold vacuum, it is lower, with high vacuum.
You cannot load the engine enough without turning the propeller to get a low vacuum, to change the idling fuel pressure much.

[NAUTIQUE-210]

Thanks daniel that one load off my mind im gunner take the injectors out tonight and get them cleaned tomorrow then ill give it a run on new years day see if any improvement
thanks again for your help

[DanielC]

I am not sure that the injectors are the problem.
My 1997 Ski Nautique, has over 2308 hours on it, without cleaning the injectors.
My 1996 Ford Aerostar van has over 176,000 miles on it, again without the injectors being cleaned. Both the van, and the boat, run good.

My opinion about injector cleaning is this. It is a service, like transmission flushes, and engine flushes, that some auto businesses sell, not because they are needed, but because they really increase the profit for the business selling you that service.

Have you downloaded the GT-40 service manual form this site? Do that. it has a very good diagnostic section.

[NAUTIQUE-210]

Yes i have the manual ill look at it tonight also i dont pay for the cleaning of the injectors caus i work for holden so ill get the boys in the workshop to do it for me it only cost me the time to pull them out so ill give it a try, so at least i can rule them out, one of the boys in the the workshop said that one injector might be stuck open so its worth a try, it just seems funny that it was running without fault for so long then one tank of e-10 and it runs like a dog, and im not blaming e-10 i might be blaming the cleaning propertys of the e-10 that might have cleaned all the **** out of my tank and (MABY) blocked an injector when passing through but im only guessing thats why i ask these questions on this very helpfull site ill do the clean and report back, as i said cant hurt.

[horkn]

If the "gas" you are referring to is gasoline, You are 100% wrong.

I am referring to gasoline. And yes ethanol makes more power than gas does. Now efficiency is another matter, but I am talking tq and hp, not efficiency.

[j2nh]

Without E10 gas, our fuel costs would be even higher. .

The only reason E10 is cheaper is that it is heavily subsidized by the Federal government. You also have to consider what the use of corn does to the cost of food. All in all the government subsidizing its use and then mandating we use it is a lose, lose for the taxpayer. We pay once at the pump and the second time when we pay Federal income tax.

[horkn]

I think many here will benefit from reading this about ethanol
http://www.ethanolfacts.com/ETHL2008/page.php?pgID=19

It does produce more octane, and it's chemical makeup allows it to combust better than gasoline.

As far as subsidies, yeah that does help, but when corn has bumper crop years like this year, so much corn is wasted and rots. Rotting corn can be used to make ethanol, where you wouldn't use it for anything else, except for a corn stove maybe.

Ethanol can be and is made from switchgrass, algae, and other biomass, including corn stalks and husks. That's stuff that we won't use for anything else. True, right now more ethanol is made from corn than the other options I have listed (and more), because it is cheaper to make ethanol out of corn at the moment. Once it gets more viable to make ethanol from other sources, then those subsidies will go away, unless farmers can't unload their corn crops otherwise. When other crops are far more profitable, those subsidies are helping farmers because you can't grow soybeans every year in the same field.

[AirTool]

Also, you can make more power out of ethanol than gas,....

If the "gas" you are referring to is gasoline, You are 100% wrong.

I am referring to gasoline. And yes ethanol makes more power than gas does. Now efficiency is another matter, but I am talking tq and hp, not efficiency.

For engines where the exhaust leaves the engine in an all gaseous state (i.e. no condensed water), we quantify a fuel's available energy (heat of combustion) by the "Lower Heating Value" (LHV). The LHV for gasoline and ethanol are shown below as taken from the footnoted URL.

Conventional gasoline: 18,679 Btu/lb
Ethanol: 11,587 Btu/lb

So....just to be clear....you are 100% wrong.

http://hydrogen.pnl.gov/cocoon/morf/...ing_values.xls

[horkn]

It's a LOT more complicated than simply BTU value. I respect your posts a lot, and this site does not need that either so I won't get into an argument, but I respectfully disagree.

Methanol, and Ethanol injected into normal gasoline engines makes more power due to how oxygen attaches to the alcohol, allowing more power to be made.

[j2nh]

I think many here will benefit from reading this about ethanol
http://www.ethanolfacts.com/ETHL2008/page.php?pgID=19

It does produce more octane, and it's chemical makeup allows it to combust better than gasoline.

As far as subsidies, yeah that does help, but when corn has bumper crop years like this year, so much corn is wasted and rots. Rotting corn can be used to make ethanol, where you wouldn't use it for anything else, except for a corn stove maybe.

Ethanol can be and is made from switchgrass, algae, and other biomass, including corn stalks and husks. That's stuff that we won't use for anything else. True, right now more ethanol is made from corn than the other options I have listed (and more), because it is cheaper to make ethanol out of corn at the moment. Once it gets more viable to make ethanol from other sources, then those subsidies will go away, unless farmers can't unload their corn crops otherwise. When other crops are far more profitable, those subsidies are helping farmers because you can't grow soybeans every year in the same field.

Respectflully horkn, I am of the opinion that ethanol as it is currently produced is not a viable alternative fuel.

There are strong arguments that when all energy sources are taken into account that ethanol is a net energy loser.
3 billion dollar subsidies provided by the Federal government give a distorted view of the true cost of ethanol production.
There is no doubt that it is a benefit to farmers, but I question whether they should profit from the government subsidizing production and then forcing me to purchase it and at the same time driving corn prices higher. Something is just not right with this. This problem is made worse by the Federal government not allowing ethanol imports from Brazil, which would drive the price down.

Ethanol is not a long term answer to energy independence and in my opinion keeps this country from exploring and implementing better solutions. I am no expert but from what I have read we could achieve our goals by taking a long hard look at using LNG (liquified natural gas) as a fuel for transportation. We have abundant reserves and the technology exists. I would much rather the government invest in this while we work on battery technology which still has a long way to go.

[horkn]

We've been using ethanol mixture gases here in SE Wisconsin for close to 20 years now. And now it finally has now spread all throughout Wi, and most other states. That's pretty darn viable IMHO


Yes, there probably are better sources of fuel than ethanol (particularly corn based ethanol), but they would have to be compatible with existing engines. That is the crux of the issue.

[SkiTower]

[QUOTE=horkn;151760]but they would have to be compatible with existing engines.[QUOTE]

That's the problem, they're not. There's a reason companies are making "flex fuel" systems, to accept this stuff. Tough luck for the rest of us with older cars.