Rpm sensor?

[AirTool]

More thoughts - getting better - be sure not to miss my previous note above. Read all of the note below ...especially number 4.

1. I see the keypad in your video.

2. The resistor is in the gray wire from the coil to the tach. Check it all the way to the 10-pin connector. In the 10 pin connector, there is a black ground. Make sure it is good all the way from the ground to the back of the gauges. I'm not sure how they daisy chain this ground but if there is one lug that splits into multiple ground wires...make sure it is good. I think the ground is on all gauges. But the tach is part of the engine system, not the boat system so it may be separate.

3. I believe there is a green wire in the 10-pin connector. This goes to an alarm I think and then ground, be sure it is grounded good.

4. There might be a chance your boat is bouncing in and out of limp mode (reduction due to a problem). From the ECA connector, there is a tan/black coming from pin 17 on the ECA. It runs to a separate oil pressure switch and temperature switch that do not feed your panel. There is also an extra connector in the harness that is not connected to a device. All the wires are tan/black and one runs up to the dash to power a buzzer. It is 2 am so I'm not thinking to clearly, but it looks to me like each of the switches goes to ground to set off the alarm and show a ground to the ECA signalling limp mode. (only one vote required) I believe it would be safe to disconnect each of these two switches and see what happens. I'm thinking the culprit is the oil switch. I have a theory how this would cause some of your hunting but won't spend time explaining. Just check the two switches.

5. Possibly trivia, but there is a separate relay that feeds power to your ECA. After testing the items above, find that relay. In the situation where your engine dies, you might want to thump that relay or put a volt meter on the feed to the ECA. It is separate from your fuel pump relay.

I will not have web service monday. If you need to talk to me, you have my email and maybe cell phone. Be sure to leave a message...i'm in and out of cell service. I get PM's by email but can't easily reply to them unless you put your email.

[AirTool]

One other thing I was thinking, someone with Ford experience can offer more. When the SPOUT connector is plugged in, the ECA manages timing/firing. When it is unplugged, the ignition module manages timing/firing. I don't think I'd run the engine under load for a long time w/spout unplugged. BUT, once you get to a point when all the problems are going on, unplug the spout and see what happens. If the problem goes away, the ECA looks guilty.

I know we are reaching here, but trying to figure out ways to point to or away from that ECA without the star doodad.

Also, I agree with you on the loose or shorted wire business. The way that tach pegged out shows it was clearly over driven/grounded.

[Chexi]

Chexi - I'm traveling tonight and can't study the schematic again. But here are some comments.

1. Disconnecting positive is the same as negative.

2. The schematic shows a resistor (or two) and DanielC mentioned it also. Usually they are a white ceramic block with the resistor inside. I'm not sure they are like this in marine application (because of spark risk) but can you trace out that tach circuit and find the resistor and make sure it is not cracked or the spade terminals loose in the housing? That thing might be working fine until it gets hot and then starts causing problems. It is a stretch but worth a check. I sold auto parts (back in the day - not at Plant 18) and I sold about 10 of those in five years. BUT, those 10 people needed one. Your resistor idea is intriguing, because there is definitely something going on with the tach, and yes, the gray wire is the signal wire to the tach. Tracing that wire is the next step. Unfortunately, we discovered this ticking / shorting with about 30 minutes before we had to pull out and take my friends to the airport.

3. When did you do the strobe trick? before or after the Ignition Module replacement? (Did you put it on one plug wire or on the coil wire? On any wire, but more visible on the coil wire, it should beat like a metronome....NOT ONE SINGLE MIS-FIRE.

4. Did you put the paste on the back of the new Ignition Module?

5. There is a ground in the tach loop and probably the coil loop somewhere. Do check those.

6. Do you have a keypad or key switch. I was thinking you had a switch but you mentioned the stop button. Just wondering because the schematic is for a switch and I'd need to think through the differences.

This one is pi55ing me off. By now, I'm thinking you wish you had that pontoon boat.

Thanks for taking all this time to help. I really appreciate it. I wish I had 1/10th of your knowledge on this stuff.

1. Thought so. Thank you.

2. I will have to check this (or have the dealer check this), but I won't be able to check now until next weekend, so I may just take it to a dealer (again). It does seem like heat can cause the issue. I was also thinking maybe bilge water, which tends to add up over time as well (like maybe an exposed wire that starts grounding when exposed to water).

3. We did the strobe trick after changing the ignition module. We did it on 1 plug wire and on the main coil wire. It was metronomish when the engine was running fine. It would speed up as we added throttle, and slow down as we decreased throttle. But, it would go erratic when the engine was acting up and about to or in the process of stalling. We did for sure see the light just stop altogether an instant before the boat misfired and died. I am convinced this is a spark issue. What is causing that spark issue... that is the question. Could be the resistor as you suggest, could be a short in a wiring harness that we couldn't see.

4. I put arctic silver thermal compound on the back of the TFI. Should be much better than the crap paste that came with the module.

5. Agreed. I have to check this.

6. You found your answer to this one, I have a key/number pad.

Nah, not the pontoon boat. That boat was a PITA too. I wish I still had my trouble-free 99 Air though.

Can I just say that answering in these quick reply boxes sucks. It keeps jumping around!

[Chexi]

Airtool, could I possibly have the killer toggle switch problem that you and many others have had?

http://www.planetnautique.com/vb3/sh...-key-pad/page2

One thing I might not have mentioned is that sometimes after the boat stalls, it is difficult to restart. When this happens, I have toggled the switch on the kickplate, and that has almost always allowed the motor to start back up just fine. I, perhaps foolishly, assumed that cutting the power completely was temporarily resetting the sensors, computer, which caused the boat to work. But perhaps it was a simple as a corroded or failing toggle switch, that once toggled off and back on, made the connection again. The reason I did not think this was the case (and may not be the case), is because I still have full power to all accessories when the problem occurs. Also, when I press start, the starter motor engages and the motor turns, it just does not fire. Would all this still occur if the toggle switch was bad?

[AirTool]

If I wasn't so !@#$%^& busy, I'd just drive up there and take a look for myself.

If you do the timing light trick again and get the symptoms - discount the SPOUT which will make the module handle the spark....not the ECA. It would be an ECA test.

I didn't ignore your comment on the kill cord. But you may be on to something with it and the toggle. (I saw you messing with the toggle in the video.) I'm not sure how your old style keypad and computer work compared to my newer style with the gateway that feeds the dash. but I'm thinking your system would be more tolerant (a bad thing) of the toggle clipping in and out. I'm pretty sure if mine clipped out everything would go dead until I put the code in again. (I think there was one report of sputtering due to the switch.) Studying that GT40 book though, yours might not be so quick to just go dead... one or more of those relays might stay powered. That was a strange symptom you mentioned that the engine would fire back up without pressing start. IIRC.

One other feature of the newer ones, is that the engine will still crank with the cord off. BUT it won't run and there is no power to the gauges.

Here is some text from my hate file on the toggle:

DISCONNECT YOUR BATTERY FIRST

1. CHEAT: There is a line tang in the middle and two load tangs. One feeds the "system" the other bilge only. Generally only the system tang fails. (tell me if yours has a black cable tie binding it to the 12v power point) You can just reverse the two loads. Connect the bilge to the bad tang and system to the good tang. (leave the line side (hot) wire alone...the one in the middle. The bilge tang is on top and the system tang is on the bottom....the tangs are "opposite" the switch direction.

2. CHEAT: if the whole switch failed, you can just land the system load line on the center line (hot) connection but you won't have any switching capability. Who cares, just type in your keypad code and press stop to kill the panel power. You can also pull your kill switch which de-powers the instruments (but still allows cranking if they keypad is on).

3. you can possibly find this switch at Home Depot, Radio shack, Grainger, etc. Find my post for the online source I found with what I think is the best switch.

I still think the problem is the cable tie. Let me know if you have to cut one off to get your switch out...and what tang it was wrapped around.

[Chexi]

A helpful mechanic at a forum sponsor suggested that it might be a loose distributor pickup, which I take to mean the Hall Effect - PIP. If this is it, it means a new distributor. I don't recall this being loose, but I'm going to check tonight.

[AirTool]

I think the pickup PIP is available as a part. I mentioned it had some wires and suspected it had a plug. I'd send a pic but it is not from the nice sponser's site.

The ring might be available from Ford or Motorcraft.

[jjgag60]

rpm

The pip takes a 5.5 socket to remove. You will not need to replace the distributor. Good luck

[Chexi]

I can't get the vanes off, even when I take the bolts out. I think it's rusted/fused on. I was afraid to start banging in there.

I ran the boat on the hose last night and had the hunting idle bad. I unhooked the SPOUT connector, and it stopped rolling immediately... but the rpms settled at 1050, which is obviously way too high. I wonder if the base timing of the engine is way off, resulting in a fight between the computer and the mechanical timing.

[AirTool]

Don't mess with the vanes if they aren't damaged or lose. No banging. The vanes are very unlikely to be the problem.

Base timing might be off. You have a light so go ahead and check it. I'll have to go back and read the literature on the spout and the idle speed.

Did you happen to try disconnecting that low oil pressure switch that feeds the ECA? Limp or S.L.O.W. mode is controlled by the ECA and disconnecting the spout might also disable slow mode...initiated by the oil pressure switch and pointing to it as the problem.

Did your tach jump around or peg out?

[Chexi]

I only had a short time, and during that time the Tach did not short / bounce around. I did not pull the oil pressure switch.

I took it back to the dealer last night after I pulled the SPOUT and tried (quickly) to find a short. I couldn't easily find the resistor, but I ran out of daylight and just basically said ##@$# it.

[AirTool]

The one thing I will say is that the test you did last night points AWAY from anything in the distributor and "core" ignition parts including PIP. If you pulled the spout and all was well but the idle speed, that tells me it is something in the ECA loop or end devices, or still the toggle causing a brief power blip some systems can handle but maybe the ECA/relay can't. I'm still interested in that low pressure switch to ECA. I'm less interested in the resistor to the tach.

I would also check all connectors in the fuel injector loops.

[crobi2]

^ ugh. Well I haven't done this. I did have the positive cable off the battery overnight. If that does the same thing as pulling the negative, then my sensor swaps are not the fix.

I noticed something new today. Sometimes, after my boat mysteriously dies, the tach may continue to bounce around. Today, it was kind of quiet one time when this happened and we noticed that exactly in tune with the bounces on the tach we could hear what sounded like either (a) a spark from a short or (b) a relay click. Every time the rpm needle bounced a bit, we heard "tick". So it was like, "tick, tick... tick tick.... tick.. tick". We assumed it was a short and tried to find it, but we couldn't before it stopped. It did this a few more times throughout the day. My friend was convinced it was coming from the ignition coil, MAP sensor, TFI area... but to me it sounded more like it was further forward closer to the fuel rail on the FCC side. Here's the really weird part, sometimes when it does this, it could be like 5 or more seconds after the boat has died, and the boat will fire back up on its own. This only happens if I don't hit the STOP button of course, but if I don't, the boat could turn over on its own if this ticking is going on.

Another question. The idle speed control bypass air solonoid makes an audible noise like a spring when it engages. Is this normal? This is the replacement I put on.

Thanks all. This is so incredibly frustrating. I appreciate all of your help. One of these days, I'll have a working boat.

Up there by the FCC and fuel rail is a solenoid that appears to be a master for ECM and starting.

Have you been able to check all of the connections on the solenoids by the FCC and fuel rail?

Did the engine really crank itself back on after it had died?

Sorry if I'm not helping, but your problem has got me hooked now.

[Chexi]

I visually inspected the FCC and fuel rails and did not see anything arcing or any frayed or bare wires. I did not do voltage tests there.

Yes, the engine has really started itself after it dies. It will die, and if I don't hit stop, there is like a 10% chance that it will fire and start again. This has happened at least 3 times. It will then die a few seconds after that, although once I gave it some throttle after it fired up again on its own and it stayed alive for 15 seconds or so.

[Chexi]

After looking back at the manual, it seems to me that another possible culprit is the MAP Sensor harness. I have changed the MAP sensor, so it can't be that, but, "when the MAP sensor/circuit fails, the idle RPM will oscillate and the engine may stall. In addition, it may be necessary to repeatedly use the remote control warmup lever to aid starting a hot engine." This seems dead on. If I have an open circut in the MAP harness, that could explain the arcing noise that we couldn't see (if it were generally an open circut that was occassionally shorting). It would also explain a rolling idle (open circuit) and why the boat will start back up okay if I let it rest for a while. But, this is just one of many possibilities.