ZDDP in oil

[TRBenj]

TRBENJ,

Am I reading this spec sheet correctly in that Castrol GTX 15w-40 Diesel (works for both cars and trucks) provides 1300ppm of ZDDP?

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp...GTX_Diesel.pdf

Thanks

You are reading it correctly, except that the GTX contains 1300ppm of zinc. I misspoke and meant that a good flat tappet oil should have a minimum of 1200ppm of both zinc AND phosphorus. (ZDDP = Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates)

In comparison, Both VR1 and M1 15w50 have 1300ppm of zinc and 1200ppm of phos. The GTX 15w40 isnt *too* bad at 1300/1100... but there are better choices out there.

[TRBenj]

FWIW, all 1994 and newer 351W block castings had the bosses provided for installing a roller cam. All that needs to be done for the conversion is to drill/tap the 2 bosses, replace the cam/lifters for roller versions, install the spider that holds the lifters in place, (reason for the 2 bolt bosses) and install shorter pushrods.

You'd also need to swap the distributor gear. Either way, its not exactly a trivial (or inexpensive) swap. Its much easier to use the proper oil than to go through the swap purely for reliability/longetivity reasons.

My 1993 Ford Lightning has the 351W in it now clocking over 125,000 miles and I have used Castrol 5W-30 or 10W-40 in it since 1998 when I bought it. Never a minutes trouble. Now I understand the RPM levels and loads put on marine engines are different from automotive engines, but I think some people over think the whole ZDDP thing a bit much. If it makes you sleep better though carry-on.

That sort of reasoning sounds like it comes from someone who has never wiped a cam lobe.

As it was shown with the above datasheet, GTX is not a bad oil choice for a flat tappet... but there are better choices available. Choosing an appropriate oil for an application (specifically as it relates to flat tappet cams and zddp levels) just seems like something an informed, proactive person would do. That would be much preferred to being ignorant of the potential issue and having to deal with the consequences later! The minimal extra cost for VR1 or similar is pretty minute in the grand scheme of things.

[74green]

Does anyone ever raise concern about diesel oils having high detergent and higher viscosity compared to gas engines? It seems like a give and take to achieve ZDDP levels with today’s oils... from what I see online gasoline products don’t have the ZDDP levels and diesel oils are designed with cleaning additives for soot and meeting specific diesel needs. I would not say I am an expert on lubricants. So what is more important… ZDDP levels or a lower detergent/viscosity oil.

Therefore after purchasing my AIR and reading about ZDDP on post such as this I contact PCM directly and they told me I’d be fine with diesel/gas rated RT 15W-40 (as I noted several PN members at that time using) and changing every 50hrs (or less). Having been following that since… I’d recommend that anyone that is not well informed on the technical aspects or curious ask someone who is…like PCM or your local Nautique dealer.

Just my 2 cents...

[core-rider]

Therefore after purchasing my AIR and reading about ZDDP on post such as this I contact PCM directly and they told me I’d be fine with diesel/gas rated RT 15W-40 (as I noted several PN members at that time using) and changing every 50hrs (or less). Having been following that since… I’d recommend that anyone that is not well informed on the technical aspects or curious ask someone who is…like PCM or your local Nautique dealer.

Just my 2 cents...

Kinda the point I was trying to make. I use what the manufacturer recommends. 15W-40 above 50 deg. OAT and 5W-30 below 50 deg. OAT. I have stuck with Castrol GTX since I first started working on cars at age 14. It's just what I liked and it hasn't bit me in the tail once. Sure I've never wiped a lobe and I'm not concerned about it because it's not an epidemic sweeping the boating world. It may happen once in a blue moon. I like to stick with what is proven and what I'm comfortable with. Are there better choices, sure, but my choice works just fine too.

[TRBenj]

Kinda the point I was trying to make. I use what the manufacturer recommends. 15W-40 above 50 deg. OAT and 5W-30 below 50 deg. OAT. I have stuck with Castrol GTX since I first started working on cars at age 14. It's just what I liked and it hasn't bit me in the tail once. Sure I've never wiped a lobe and I'm not concerned about it because it's not an epidemic sweeping the boating world. It may happen once in a blue moon. I like to stick with what is proven and what I'm comfortable with. Are there better choices, sure, but my choice works just fine too.

My point is that a lot has changed in the world of oils since PCM made their recommendations 10 years ago. 2002 was the last time they built a flat tappet cam motor, so you can imagine how much development theyve done since then to address this concern (my guess is none). All PCM engines since 2003 have been roller, so this is a non-issue for them. If your dealer has a good service center, they may be aware of the potential issue... but Ive witnessed some pretty ignorant service departments as well. These CC enthusiast sites (PN and CCFan) will oftentimes have more collective knowledge than a dealer... so keep that in mind.

You can stick with what you consider "proven" because youre "comfortable" with it, but if youre using it in a flat tappet engine, you should be aware that formulations on many oils have changed as of the last several years. I would highly recommend that anyone with a flat tappet motor educate themselves on oil and choose something appropriate.

Im not sure what you would consider an "epidemic" but I dont think theres much of a question that flat tappet cam failures are more common now than ever before, which can be directly attributed to the reformulated oils now available. Ive wiped a lobe, and know a few people who have done the same. Not fun.

[AirTool]

That sort of reasoning sounds like it comes from someone who has never wiped a cam lobe.

I agree. In 1986 I witnessed the teardown of a 350 out of an 81 Z28. It had a rough idle but still ran like a scalded ape.

I worked at Hi-Lo store and it belonged to one of the other workers there. The anal retentive (no surprise) owner went on a relentless hunt to fix this rough idle. I'm sure many of you out there including me would do the same thing. Long story short- one of the resident experts keyed on a bad valve....we struggled with that a bit because of the strong performance but popped the valve covers off and noticed one intake valve not working. Since we heard no lifters ticking...didn't hesitate to pull the intake and ...sure enough....one of the cam lobes was as round as a bearing area. It was polished clean like a mirror. Unbelievable.

I have one flat tappet engine and don't ever want to see her lose her lobes.

[EchoLodge]

Posts I made doing my "Internet Research" on oil.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...2439236&page=1

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum...w-sj-oil--zddp

http://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/ZDDP.htm

[Jono]

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

it seems that mobil 15/50 isn't the only oil in their lineup with zinc.
should i be losing sleep if i use 0w-40 with 1100 ppm of zinc vs 1300?

[AirTool]

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

it seems that mobil 15/50 isn't the only oil in their lineup with zinc.
should i be losing sleep if i use 0w-40 with 1100 ppm of zinc vs 1300?

but does it have the other stuff too? besides zinc

I would prefer to use a base oil with a higher viscosity than 0. That is just too thin. I don't like the idea of 5 but i use it in my new fords. I'd prefer 10w or 15w or higher for legacy engines.

Further, 40 minus 0 = 40 which is the largest gap I've noticed. I know it is only 5 more than 50 - 15 but that's a high number also. I'd like to limit the "something minus the w" to 20.

[DanielC]

My owners manual recommends using a 20W-50 oil, only if you operate the engine below 32 degrees Fahrenheit. it recommends a straight weight 30 from 32 to 50 degrees, and a straight weight 40 from 50 degrees on up.

Valvoline VR-1 oil is available in all three grades. Why not use it?

[AirTool]

My owners manual recommends using a 20W-50 oil, only if you operate the engine below 32 degrees Fahrenheit. it recommends a straight weight 30 from 32 to 50 degrees, and a straight weight 40 from 50 degrees on up.

Valvoline VR-1 oil is available in all three grades. Why not use it?

I agree. Why do people make this so hard?

[chris196]

I used VR-1 40W.
Then, I could not get it without special order.
I switched to VR-1 20-50. I'm not really sweating it.

[EchoLodge]

I agree. Why do people make this so hard?

Ignorance is bliss! 1400 hours on my prior 90 sport running Castrol GTX 20-50. Boat still runs great. It was only when I looked at the recommendations from PCM when I bought the 99 Super Sport that I got to learn about the joys of ZDDP and flat tappet engines. If 40W was readily available I still would not know about ZDDP. It was only when I had a hard time finding it that I looked into it more. BTW... The researched also informed my of the short comings of FRAM filters... Which I had used for a decade on my Sport.

[DanielC]

The reduction in ZDDP is a fairly recent development, and when your 1999 SS was new, The oil you mentioned may have enough of the ZDDP in it.
It is also more critical to have higher levels of ZPPD when an engine is new, after the engine has been broken in, the camshaft is not as sensitive to reduced levels of the ZDDP, but is is still important to run some. How much, I do not actually know. Every engine is a little different, and I do not want to find out how little ZDDP is needed, by my camshaft failing.

[AirTool]

The researched also informed my of the short comings of FRAM filters... Which I had used for a decade on my Sport.

Well it was probably the decade when the FRAM filters was owned by Dana/Spicer heritage IIRC and quality was top. Now I think it is separate and run by bean counters and most of the orange stuff is from China...including the industrial stuff. A sad day for the color orange...one of my favorites.