2016 G23 H6DI 450HP Oil Specification???

[greggmck]

The engine owners manual for my 2016 G23 H6DI 450 HP 6.2L Chevy engine calls for the following oil specification - above 50 degrees: 15W-40 GF-4/SM

I have performed an exhaustive search (on-line) and in every local auto parts supply store, including Walmart and West Marine and this oil is no longer available. Shell Rotella T is the closest match but it does not carry the GF-4 designation and Shell is no longer making it. It carries a diesel specific CJ-4 specification, which indicates higher phosphorus levels that can harm the catalytic converters used on gasoline engines. All newer versions of Rotella now carry the "Heavy Duty Diesel Oil" label and higher phosphorus PPM.

I believe the 15W-40 GF-4/SM rating is out of date, so what are dealers using for oil changes? The closest thing I can find is Castrol GTX 10W-40 CF-4/SM and this is what I am using now.

My dealer has recommended Quicksilver 25W-40 Synthetic but my engine is new and I want to run the first 100 hrs. with petroleum based oil to ensure proper break-in.
Thanks in advance.

[NautiqueJeff]

I was never able to get a definite answer from PCM on this. Some of their employees recommended Rotella T 15W-40, but I don't consider that an official recommendation from them.

There is more information about this in this thread:

http://www.planetnautique.com/vb5/fo...r-450hp-engine

As I mentioned in that thread, I believe PCM may have made a mistake in their requirements, since GF-4 doesn't apply to the 15W-40 weight. Also, since GF-4 was eliminated in 2011, it would be impossible to find today. It has been replaced by GF-5.

[etang789]

I have the same exact problem and I have gave up looking. Especially when Shell Rotella T is not even avaliable on this side of the world. So I have just been using what my car uses Silkolene Fuchs Titan Race Pro S 5w40 meets the cold and warm weather weight, and it is Ester Fully Synthetic Engine Oil, and ZDDP 1100ppm

[greggmck]

Last night I posted my question on the PCM website. PCM responded this morning with the following statement:

"We use and recommend the Shell Penzoil Rotella15w-40 which is available just about anywhere including Walmart, yes this is a highly recommended oil for Diesel engines as well as gasoline engines."

They pointed me to Shell Rotella T4 since Shell Rotella T is no longer being produced.

From the Shell Rotella T4 website:
Manufacturer Information

Formula Shell
FormulaShell® MOTOR OIL is a motor oil formulated for improved fuel economy and to provide the engine protection and performance required by engine manufacturers. It is compatible with other conventional and synthetic oils. It exceeds all automobile and light truck warranty requirements for gasoline and turbocharged engines where an API SM and ILSAC GF-4 oil is recommended. Protects against wear, rust and corrosion, piston scuffing and combustion chamber deposits, high-temperature oxidation and valve train wear.

Here is a link to the Shell Rotella T4 oil:
http://rotella.shell.com/products/rotella-triple-protection.html

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SHE2/T15401/N0434.oap?ck=Search_N0434_SHE_-1_-1&mn=Shell&mc=SHE&pt=N0434&ppt=C0162


PCM also suggested that Amsoil has a compatible synthetic oil as well and provided this link:
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...ine-motor-oil/


So for me this saga is closed!

[thejean]

So for me this saga is not closed at all. None of the oils recommended by the dealer or PCM actually meet the 15W40 SM spec. Rotella T4 and T5 do not. The Amsoil HD Diesel and Marine also does not. The Amsoil Signature series max duty 15W40 does however. Plus it is synthetic, which I like for cold starting flowability. Even the dealers in my area are using 25W40 marine oil, which I am not a fan of for cold starting on those chilly spring and fall days. So I’m leaning towards the Amsoil synthetic Signature Series Max Duty 15W40.

[charlesml3]

You're overthinking this. PCM said to run Rotella T4. White Lake Marine buys it by the 55-gallon drum and they put it in everything. What more do you need than that?

-Charles

[thejean]

You're overthinking this. PCM said to run Rotella T4. White Lake Marine buys it by the 55-gallon drum and they put it in everything. What more do you need than that?

-Charles

Perhaps but I’ am an engineer and it miffs me to no end to see other engineers be so careless with specifications. I'd like to know WHY they originally felt they needed an SM specification and then why they so quickly dismiss it without even so much as a technical explanation. Just aggravating. And frankly I don'’t think T4 is that good of an oil and would rather use something better but am struggling to figure out what that is. My dealer talks about having enough to top up between changes. That tells me that the motors are wearing out prematurely as these motors should not consume oil until they get well above 500 hours. Moreover, it tells me that likely the oil we are using is sub par. When it comes to a $200k toy, I'€™m willing to spare no expense on fluids and want the absolute best. In fact, I'm the same with all of my engines. I have some T5 on hand right now that I can use but I might swap up to the Amsoil as it's not really that much more money.

[charlesml3]

I don't know what to tell you then. My neighbor has a 2013 G23 with over 750 hours on it with T4 and it's fine. I've never heard anything at all about "motors are wearing out prematurely." Sounds like BS to me. I've changed the oil now 5 times in my 230 and haven't had to top up between changes.

What data do you have to show T4 isn't a good oil? I think you're struggling to find something better than T4 because there really isn't anything any better. And why should these engines start to use oil "well above 500 hours?" That just doesn't make sense. I've seen some boats come in from ski and wakeboard schools with 5000 hours on them and they aren't using oil.

I talk to my service manager at White Lake Marine regularly and I know they use T4. They're the oldest Nautique dealer in the world and they know what they're doing. If it's good enough for WLM, it's good enough for me.

-Charles

[thejean]

Yeah, my point exactly. I can'’t see any of these engines starting to take oil until well into the hundreds or thousands of hours. Even my built motors with 35 thou clearance didn'’t take any oil. It is possible my dealer was exaggerating a bit. Who knows.

Regarding the quality of Rotella (and full disclosure - I used to work for Shell myself), is here:

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2695.pdf

And here:

https://www.oildepot.ca/shell-rotell...nthetic-5w-40/

Based on these, I will likely switch my diesel trucks oil to Amsoil from T6.

But I will also concede that the Rotella didn'’t start to show its true colours until after 100 hours or so, which is well beyond our service intervals. So likely you're right, any of the Rotella oils are probably fine.

I am just a huge believer in high quality lubricants and synthetics in general due to the oil getting to where it needs to go much easier. And that'’s even without considering extended intervals.

Anyway, I would just love to know what the SM is all about and why so I can make a truly educated decision in the matter and not blindly follow a very vague word of mouth recommendation. I know that PCM said it'’s ok to use the Amsoil diesel and marine oil but it just bugs me that the one the say is ok doesn'’t even meet their own spec. I'’d just like to know why.

But I am 100% overthinking it. But that'’s what most of are here for anyway, because we want good sound info.

[thejean]

Some info on API SN vs SM and GF-5 standards:

https://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/api-sn.php

API SN and GF-5 are identical apparently:

"The requirements of API SN with the Resource Conserving supplemental category are identical to the requirements of the ILSAC GF-5 standard."

And SN > SM (the N supercedes the M):

https://www.api.org/products-and-ser...s#tab_gasoline

Lastly, I notice that the marine engine oils are all FC-W and FC-W Catalyst Compatible whereas NONE of the 15W40 diesel oils make any mention of this. And the H6 is a CES engine with a cat so I am a bit worried about this as well. Clearly the diesel oils are not gumming up the cats enough to cause rampant issues but it does surprise me that PCM has not specified a more cat-friendly oil. Note that there isn't a single 15W40 oil that meets FC-W requirements but there are plenty of 25W40 oils that do:

https://www.nmma.ca/certification/oil/fc-wcat

Ideally I would LOVE to find a synthetic 15W40 marine oil (with actual marine rust inhibitors, not just a diesel oil rated for HD marine diesel engines) that is also SN and FC-W compliant. But sadly, no such oil exists, at least not that I can find. My dealer uses Quicksilver 25W40 marine oil, which is FC-W rated but I can't get their synthetic blend locally. I also worry about the 25W40 rating for cold starts.

http://www.quicksilver-products.com/...ls/engine-oil/

Here's my summary of the potentially suitable products and specs:
a. Rotella T4/T5 15W40 - meets only CK-4 but not SN/SM or FC-W <-- many dealers use this one and is the PCM recommendation
b. Amsoil 15W40 HD Diesel and Marine (synthetic) - meets CK-4 but not SN/SM or FC-W <-- PCM said this is also "OK to use"
c. Amsoil 15W40 Signature Max Duty Diesel (synthetic) - meets CK-4 and SN requirements, but not FC-W <-- the one I am leaning towards
d. Quicksilver 25W40 Marine Oil (mineral or synthetic) - Meets FC-W but not CK-4 or SN <-- my dealer uses this one
e. Quicksilver 15W40 HD Diesel Oil - meets CK-4 but not SN/SM or FC-W

And I will give an honourable mention the Amsoil 10W40 Synthetic Marine Oil, which in my opinion is the best compromise as it has better cold starting properties, yet retains the 40-weight high temp protection and is SM and FC-W rated. Personally I think this is the best option but my dealer said to stick with a 15W40 even though the manual says we can use a 5W30 if the ambient temperature is relatively cold. And since they will be the one doing my warranty work, I guess I ought to adhere.

So there you have it. My dealer uses a marine-specific oil while others use HD diesel oils with no apparent rhyme or reason to it. So basically it looks like we can use whatever the heck we want so long as it's a 15W40 or thicker (i.e., 25W40, which I don't agree with as starting up after extended periods is when a motor sees the most wear in my opinion) and we need not consider the catalytic converter whatsoever. Ugh........

[thejean]

VERY good info here on why synthetic PAO oils are better for catalytic converters:

http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

[thejean]

Well if anyone is still following this, I’ve decided to go with Amsoil Signature Series Max Duty 15W40 synthetic. It’s one of the few synthetics that I could find that meet API SN/SM as per the owners manual (even though neither PCM nor my dealer seem to care about that). Cost me about $5/gallon more than the Rotella T5, which is nothing considering I get improved ‘cold’ flowability and likely less stress on the cats. I also went with an Amsoil filter. Will it make a difference at the end of the day - maybe not. But at least now my anal-retentive brain can get some sleep at night. Lol

And Charles, I started thinking more about the loss of oil and I‘ve also read (and the specs show), that there are more volatiles in conventional oils than synthetics. And because they have a tiny bit higher friction, they will get a bit hotter. So perhaps my dealer sees some loss due to these factors? Who knows, but it’s one of the explanations I can fathom that would not be indicative of a worn out motor.

If anyone in Canada wants to try some cheap conventional 15W40, Canadian Tire sells their house brand and it is SM rated as well. Probably half the price of a synthetic.

For the record, I still think Amsoil 10W40 Synthetic Marine Oil is the best Oil for this motor, but I’m not willing to risk a warranty claim denial to prove a point. But once I’m out of warranty, I will absolutely switch to this oil.

Now, this saga can be officially closed!

[thejean]

And Amsoil just replied and confirmed my suspicions...





Not to mention their tech support and customer service is amazing.

They have a new fan boy right here!

[Evening Shade]

Perhaps but I’ am an engineer and it miffs me to no end to see other engineers be so careless with specifications. I'd like to know WHY they originally felt they needed an SM specification and then why they so quickly dismiss it without even so much as a technical explanation. Just aggravating. And frankly I don'’t think T4 is that good of an oil and would rather use something better but am struggling to figure out what that is. My dealer talks about having enough to top up between changes. That tells me that the motors are wearing out prematurely as these motors should not consume oil until they get well above 500 hours. Moreover, it tells me that likely the oil we are using is sub par. When it comes to a $200k toy, I'€™m willing to spare no expense on fluids and want the absolute best. In fact, I'm the same with all of my engines. I have some T5 on hand right now that I can use but I might swap up to the Amsoil as it's not really that much more money.

Some or should I say almost all engines consume some oil from day one. Both of the GM trucks I have owned have had LS engines and have used about 1/2-3/4 quarts of oil between oil changes since I bought them new. They always have had synthetic oils in them. A small amount of oil consumption doesn't mean that an engine has premature wear, its very normal. Some engines do consume more oil than others.

[RDT-G23]

Rotella T6 5W-40. The end.