Heater Problems

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • functionoverfashion
    Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
    • Jun 2017
    • 509

    • New Hampshire

    • 2003 SANTE

    Heater Problems

    On my 2003 Super Air, there is a factory-installed 2-port heater. I have never been that impressed with the heat output on these, especially on a v-drive where the hoses have so far to carry the hot water. On my old direct-drive, they were about 3-4' long each, and worked great at any engine speed. One night as part of party, we towed my boat alongside a floating dock and it spent hours idling, partly for music and partly because girls who were cold kept getting in and starting it up to run the heat. Idle only, tons of heat all the time.

    So this spring, I changed the factory water return location to a y-pipe from Heater Craft to put the return right before (upstream) of the raw water pump. This is also how I had it setup in my old boat.

    Last year, the heat worked ok, but it was hard to compare to the output of the old boat. It worked, mostly, but if you idled for too long, you'd have to just give it a little throttle to increase the flow a bit and heat would come back. It was not sustainable at just idle speed.

    Now with the new setup, I am certain there is less heat coming from the heater core. One issue I've seen is that silt, or sediment from the bits of rust that come off the inside of the engine, can get trapped in low spots in the heater core and reduce the flow. So I removed the heater core and flushed it out with a hose thoroughly, both directions. I can't say whether anything came out. But I did notice that even with a fairly high-pressure hose just held up to one of the hose barbs by hand, the water flowed pretty slowly out the other side.

    So I have a couple theories as to why the heater doesn't work as well as it did. And while the obvious culprit is the new return going into the y-pipe instead of the circ pump, I have to believe that's not the only thing going on. I really want to have better heat at idle, so I'm not sure what to do. I also know there's no reason why it shouldn't work with the y-pipe setup, if everything else is working properly.

    One theory is that there is sediment that is hardened inside the inner (water) passages of the heater core, and flow is very slow. The heater core looks to be original, or at least very old. But it didn't build up just over the winter.... or was it just enough difference from last season... I kinda don't think so. Or is the inside of that heater core just a little corroded after 15 years, and slowing the flow of water? It's copper, though... so that shouldn't be an issue.

    Another theory is that my impeller is tired; I do believe it was new at the beginning of the season, 2016 - the previous owner replaced the whole pump assembly because it was seized. My take on impellers is to replace every 2-3 years. Every year is overkill, but every "few" years is good. I've never had one fail, and this is also the general rule we used to follow at the marina where I worked. Now I like this theory because I DID change the return location for the heater, and it relies on the impeller creating strong suction. With my lake being ~55F still, it could easily cool the engine without being perfect. But maybe it's just not creating adequate suction for the heater, whereas before it was going into the circ pump.

    A third, and sort of non-theory but possible solution is that I just don't get the heat output I want, even when it's working right, so why not just get a 3-port heater core (same heater core as the 4-port with one less opening, and less money). That gets me back to the supposed 40k btu output, up from the claimed 28k from the 2-port... and another vent if I want it. The core on the 2-port is probably half the size. I feel like that would make a big difference.

    Last but not least, while the v-drive certainly allows for more passenger space, which I love, I'm kind of thinking the heater should be based in the stern, with vent hoses that extend up to the driver's seat and that area. This way, the air would have to travel farther but at least it would be more likely to be HOT. I feel like part of the problem is that the heater is too far from the engine.

    But relocating the whole heater is kind of a last resort.

    I guess now that I've thought this through, I should replace that impeller... I hear it's loads of fun on the v-belt v-drive Excalibur. And if that doesn't yield any results, then what?
  • charlesml3
    1,000 Post Club Member
    • Jan 2008
    • 2453

    • Lake Gaston, NC

    • 2022 G23

    #2
    So I'd replace that heater core right away. You did a static test with a water hose so you know it isn't flowing properly. They aren't terribly expensive.

    The heater in my boat is up front so like you pointed out, the water hoses are long. Doesn't seem to matter. As long as the engine is running, it's PLENTY warm. Hot water isn't going to cool that much over that distance, even if the hoses are 8 feet long. The flow rate is pretty high.

    If you even question the health of the impeller, replace it. Honestly, you should be replacing it every spring anyway. It's not that bad on the Excaliber.

    -Charles

    Comment

    • functionoverfashion
      Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
      • Jun 2017
      • 509

      • New Hampshire

      • 2003 SANTE

      #3
      Thanks for the reply, I know it was a long-winded post.

      I guess I'm less concerned that the water will get colder over the run of the hoses, but every bend and every bit of length is going to create friction, and slow the flow. I suspect the hose run is something like 12'+ by the time it goes from the port side intake manifold, down and around under the engine, over to the starboard stringer, then up and around underneath the helm. But still, it should be quite hot, I agree.

      I'm tempted now to go for a larger unit while I'm at it. Man, I loved the 4-port in my old boat; the 3-port uses the same larger core... hmm.

      I also have a small screen filter like I had installed in the old boat, to keep debris out of the heater. I just have to figure out which line is the supply... I think the only way is to bump the engine over while the heater is disconnected and see which hose spits water out.

      eta: I will change out the impeller. However, having seen countless 2- or 3-year old impellers that looked completely fine (but were replaced as a matter of course), I don't personally subscribe to the every-year change. It's cheap and kind-of-easy, though, so I can see the benefits. This one will come out soon.
      Last edited by functionoverfashion; 05-25-2018, 11:04 AM.

      Comment

      • gary s
        • Mar 2015
        • 333

        • Algonquin IL

        • 1969 Mustang SS, 1995 Nautique SS, 1978 Shamrock 20, 1988 Shamrock 170

        #4
        Bought mine in '13 still using the impeller it came with,I do remove it every fall. You guys who think they need to be changed every year maybe should follow Sherwoods maintainance schedule. My heat was terrible when I bought it but just adding the Y solved everything. In addition to the core check your hose along its run too, they could be kinked or collapsing somewhere.

        Comment

        • shag
          1,000 Post Club Member
          • Jul 2003
          • 2217

          • Florida


          #5
          I have never had good luck with any heater (for idling) until I installed the inline circulating pump. YUGE difference.

          Comment

          • functionoverfashion
            Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
            • Jun 2017
            • 509

            • New Hampshire

            • 2003 SANTE

            #6
            One problem here is it’s impossible to inspect the whole hose because of where it runs. All the parts I can see look fine, and it seems unlikely to be collapsing internally, although that’s possible I suppose.

            Shag - what did you use for a circ pump? I’m curious, though I don’t think that should be required. It could be an easy way to boost the heat though...


            Sent from my iPhone using PLT Nautique

            Comment

            • charlesml3
              1,000 Post Club Member
              • Jan 2008
              • 2453

              • Lake Gaston, NC

              • 2022 G23

              #7
              Originally posted by gary s View Post
              You guys who think they need to be changed every year maybe should follow Sherwoods maintainance schedule.
              There is no compelling reason whatsoever to not change an impeller regularly. It's a wear item. It's designed to wear over time. It isn't something you simply ignore until it goes bad.

              -Charles

              Comment

              • gary s
                • Mar 2015
                • 333

                • Algonquin IL

                • 1969 Mustang SS, 1995 Nautique SS, 1978 Shamrock 20, 1988 Shamrock 170

                #8
                So you pretty much agree to follow Sherwood's recommendation to replace it every year?

                Comment

                • functionoverfashion
                  Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
                  • Jun 2017
                  • 509

                  • New Hampshire

                  • 2003 SANTE

                  #9
                  I've got an impeller on hand, and I've got a section of clear hose to put inline so I can look for air bubbles. I also took the opportunity to upgrade the heater to a larger size, but first I want to make sure the system is otherwise working properly before I swap out the old core.

                  I'm going to bypass the old heater with clear hose and put a little bit of thread or something inside it so I can see the flow a little (hopefully?) - sort of like putting yarn on an hvac vent. If that test passes, then I may just put in the new heater because I've really wanted a third functioning vent anyway. I'll update with my findings.


                  Comment

                  • charlesml3
                    1,000 Post Club Member
                    • Jan 2008
                    • 2453

                    • Lake Gaston, NC

                    • 2022 G23

                    #10
                    Originally posted by gary s View Post
                    So you pretty much agree to follow Sherwood's recommendation to replace it every year?
                    I've replaced the one in my boat and my brother's every spring for the past 18 years. I've never had an overheat problem....

                    -Charles

                    Comment

                    • shag
                      1,000 Post Club Member
                      • Jul 2003
                      • 2217

                      • Florida


                      #11
                      Originally posted by functionoverfashion View Post
                      One problem here is it’s impossible to inspect the whole hose because of where it runs. All the parts I can see look fine, and it seems unlikely to be collapsing internally, although that’s possible I suppose.

                      Shag - what did you use for a circ pump? I’m curious, though I don’t think that should be required. It could be an easy way to boost the heat though...


                      Sent from my iPhone using PLT Nautique
                      I purchased the one the heatercraft sells, then just ran a separate switch/relay for it. This way I can just flip the switch while idling around, then turn it off. I put the switch in an area where the lighted switch will remind me its on. The pump can either be mounted on the return line or supply line to the heather core per heatercraft. I used the supply line.

                      Comment

                      • gary s
                        • Mar 2015
                        • 333

                        • Algonquin IL

                        • 1969 Mustang SS, 1995 Nautique SS, 1978 Shamrock 20, 1988 Shamrock 170

                        #12
                        Charles maybe then you should follow Sherwoods recommended minimum maintenance- a minor kit every 2 years and a major every 4-

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Scan 6.jpg
Views:	207
Size:	78.8 KB
ID:	557228

                        Comment

                        • charlesml3
                          1,000 Post Club Member
                          • Jan 2008
                          • 2453

                          • Lake Gaston, NC

                          • 2022 G23

                          #13
                          Originally posted by gary s View Post
                          Charles maybe then you should follow Sherwoods recommended minimum maintenance- a minor kit every 2 years and a major every 4-

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Scan 6.jpg
Views:	207
Size:	78.8 KB
ID:	557228
                          Gary,

                          Please just stop. An impeller is like $37 and I can do the replacement myself. That $37 is totally worth it to me to NOT have that one more thing to be concerned about. It's like a very inexpensive insurance policy. I know if I replace it every spring, I'm not going to have to deal with it again. I'm certainly not going to go through all the labor to pull it out and inspect it and then put it back. It's exactly the same amount of labor to just replace it.

                          -Charles

                          Comment

                          • functionoverfashion
                            Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
                            • Jun 2017
                            • 509

                            • New Hampshire

                            • 2003 SANTE

                            #14
                            So this weekend I took a section of clear hose and bypassed the heater, then started the boat and ran it at idle for a minute. There was air in the clear hose, and it didn't go away so I shut the engine off. I disconnected the hose and filled it with water to prime it, basically, and ran the engine again, this time at around 2,000 rpm. I could see water going through, then bubbles, then slowly the air bubbles would dissipate. But as soon as I shut the engine off, the bubbles would reappear in the clear section; it was the highest point in the line as I was holding it up by the steering wheel.

                            I ran it a while longer like this, and still, the bubbles came back. We used the boat Saturday night to go to a wedding, but didn't have an opportunity to run it hard for more than a few minutes (girls with their hair done up, you know?) - so the heat worked OK at high RPM but not at idle.

                            I think there is air in that return line and it isn't easy to purge. And that's causing a flow issue, causing the heat to be cool unless you're really moving.

                            How do I remove that air? I took the return hose off the heater and filled the hose with water from a cup for probably 5-10 minutes, seemingly to no end. I'm thinking that because of the Y-pipe, there comes a point where you can't fill that hose anymore, because it will just backfill into the water line that feeds the engine via the same Y pipe. So... I did what I could to fill the hose, and yet, there has to be air in there. WTF? Just run the boat at high RPM for longer? I can't imagine that's going to magically work. Or go back to the old return location on the water pump? Maybe with the Y pipe down at the very lowest point in the system, it just makes it hard to get air out of there.

                            I also think that the design of that Y pipe, while it may increase flow at idle, makes air bubbles especially hard to suck through because of the tiny inlet size. I don't know how many of you have looked at those closely, but the opening from the 5/8 hose barb into the 1-1/4 pipe that accepts the main water hose to the RWP, it's not 5/8 all the way into the pipe. The hole is only about 3/16" diameter, and according to HeaterCraft it's to create greater suction. I don't quite get that, but I'm not a physics major either. In any case, it probably doesn't help with removal of air bubbles, or at least that's what I'm now thinking. To winterize, I blew air through the heater, then put non-tox into it. And the heat hasn't worked great this season since I did that.

                            So yeah back to the question of, how do I get the air out? Pull the hose off, block the input of the y-pipe, and run the engine for a minute to allow water to flow through... cover the end of the return hose with my finger, remove blockage on y-pipe, replace hose ... Is that even possible without creating more air pockets? And without losing a finger to the belts? It's certainly not possible alone.

                            Comment

                            • functionoverfashion
                              Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
                              • Jun 2017
                              • 509

                              • New Hampshire

                              • 2003 SANTE

                              #15
                              Well, I found the source of the problem. Today I went to change the impeller, and in being careful to note the orientation of the RWP, I thought, "wait, that seems backwards." So I looked at the hoses and realized, I had put the y-pipe on the OUTPUT side of the pump, rather than the suction side. I blame the fact all the direct drive engines I've dealt with over the years have the intake side of the pump on the bottom and the output on the top. In any case, I screwed up and now I need to get a longer section of hose to run the return side back over to the TOP of the RWP and put the y-pipe in place there, and I suspect all my problems will be solved.

                              Yay?

                              Oh and while I was at it, I took a good number of pictures of the impeller change, because despite my best efforts, I didn't see any DIY guide on this particular engine; while it's not hard to do, I figured I could write it up for someone who has never done an impeller... maybe it will help someone in the future. Coming soon, right after I test out this heater fix tomorrow.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X