09 SANTE PCM 409 - Engine Bogging Down

[abpoulin]

Hello.
I have an 09 SANTE with a PCM 409. Was out this weekend and the engine started to bog down while heading in, then would go back to normal. This happened a couple of times with no patterned frequency...run fine, bog...run fine, bog. Got home and flushed the engine...no issues at idle. This was the first outing for the season, and had "through the winter" fuel (with additive), and topped the tank off prior to use.
I have read some of the threads concerning fuel filters, and it sounds like I have filters to change. I have owned the boat for three years and it has 270 hours, but I have never changed fuel filters.
My questions:
-Does this sound like a fuel filter issue?
-Do I need to change both primary and FCC filter?
-I can work on engines, and have read the threads concerning FCC filter changes, but how simple/difficult is this to do?
I have not worked with gas filters and lines and am a bit nervous to have a big spill in the bilge, but gotta make this happen one way or another as lake week is rapidly approaching!
Thanks!
-Boone

[Infinity]

Hello.
I have an 09 SANTE with a PCM 409. Was out this weekend and the engine started to bog down while heading in, then would go back to normal. This happened a couple of times with no patterned frequency...run fine, bog...run fine, bog. Got home and flushed the engine...no issues at idle. This was the first outing for the season, and had "through the winter" fuel (with additive), and topped the tank off prior to use.
I have read some of the threads concerning fuel filters, and it sounds like I have filters to change. I have owned the boat for three years and it has 270 hours, but I have never changed fuel filters.
My questions:
-Does this sound like a fuel filter issue?
-Do I need to change both primary and FCC filter?
-I can work on engines, and have read the threads concerning FCC filter changes, but how simple/difficult is this to do?
I have not worked with gas filters and lines and am a bit nervous to have a big spill in the bilge, but gotta make this happen one way or another as lake week is rapidly approaching!
Thanks!
-Boone

This could easily be the fuel filters creating the bog, especially sitting over several winters (especially if you run regular fuel with ethenol), replacing the filters would be the FIRST thing I do. Yes, you need to change them both.

The spin on canister fuel/water separator filter (use a little motor oil on the gasket just like you do for oil change, it will tighten up and remove itself easier and create a better seal as well)....
AND replace the FCC filter.
My FCC filter looks pretty dirty after 1 season and I only run ethenol free fuel. FCC is not that hard to change, you just need a little patience and process. You owners manual will show what to do.
Here is the short version: At bottom of canister, there is a screw....remove the screw and let the fuel/water drain out (put something under it to catch it like cut open bottle, etc). When you put screw back in, either use pipe dope or plumbers tape so you get a tight seal since you do not want fuel dripping into bilge.
Undo the clamp at top of canister, disconnect the wires....slid the canister down...its pressure fit so wiggle it down slowly (may be some finagling required since you gotta drop it like 8-10" to get FCC filter out, I had to angle it sideways due to motor mount below it in the way...which is one reason you wanna drain the fuel from canister before removing).
The FCC filter just pops off....double check everything to make canister and all parts are nice and clean.
REPLACE both of the o-rings (this is where the canister slides back up to where the clamp goes on)...I put a small amount of motor oil or marine grease on o-rings before install to lube them up.....then just put everything back on in reverse order. Don't forget to hook your wires back up

Once done, double check everything. Key ignition 4-5 times as this will fill up the fuel filters and then fire it up. Make sure you are venting really well when you start since there will be gas fumes due to changing the filters.....and double check both of the filters really well for leaks once engine is running (I quadruple check....and then check again the next time I go out on the water).

2 pics below....the first is the FCC filter (After 80 hours and 1 season of running non-ethenol fuel).
2nd pic...shows the spin on fuel filter (the one on right side).

I would suggest that you also check your engine belt while you are working on the boat.... When did you change the impeller last? Its pretty easy to replace and can cause big problems if it goes out on you. Impeller is yearly item IMO....every other year at most.
Do you change your oil and filter every 50hrs or at least at end of each season? For $40 and 30mins of your time.....you should! You can buy those at Walmart. Start with 4 quarts of oil and then check it, depending on the level you may need to add another half quart or so....do not overfill as its bad for engine. You want to check engine oil while boat is at a "natural floating" position. I use: Motorcraft FL-1A engine oil filter.....Rotella T-4, 15-40 engine oil (heavy duty desiel oil).

You should also check the trans fluid....and the v-drive fluid since you are going all out and making sure your boat is gonna be perfect for a long time to come ;-)

[abpoulin]

Thank you very much for the great response.
Yes, I change my oil at the end of the season as we have not reached 50 hrs per season yet. I use the oil you recommend.
I have changed my impeller once, and always carry a spare...but now will bump that to changing once a year.
The boat was neglected a little in its last life, and we have been trying to bring it back to where we think it should be. It is a family boat so we want it to last...and have it look good too.
One other question...the boat was a little neglected in its last life. The engine compartment was a mess, and it has taken a lot of time to get under the engine to clean the mess. The aft engine mounts have some surface rust...what would be a good resurfacing paint. Someone mentioned POR applied after brushing the surface rust. Thoughts?
I will order parts for the weekend to come and will report back.
Thank you.

[Infinity]

Thank you very much for the great response.
Yes, I change my oil at the end of the season as we have not reached 50 hrs per season yet. I use the oil you recommend.
I have changed my impeller once, and always carry a spare...but now will bump that to changing once a year.
The boat was neglected a little in its last life, and we have been trying to bring it back to where we think it should be. It is a family boat so we want it to last...and have it look good too.
One other question...the boat was a little neglected in its last life. The engine compartment was a mess, and it has taken a lot of time to get under the engine to clean the mess. The aft engine mounts have some surface rust...what would be a good resurfacing paint. Someone mentioned POR applied after brushing the surface rust. Thoughts?
I will order parts for the weekend to come and will report back.
Thank you.

I am honestly not sure about the best paint....I know that I use "Fluid Film" on all the bolts, etc in my engine to help keep rust/corrosion at bay, tho there is no doubt that is a difficult task. I would check reviews online for a really good paint, of course the MOST important part of good paint job is going to be the prep work being done carefully and thoroughly. Depending on the paint you use, you may want some kind of primer that protects against rust sprayed before the paint.
I have not had to do this on my boat yet, but hear some great reviews on some great stuff to de-grease and clean the engine compartment. I have seen several options mentioned.

[abpoulin]

Thanks again for helping out Infinity. Changed both fuel filters, and minimized fuel in the bilge...only a little from changing the primary filter. Primed the system four times as recommended with no leaks. Changed the impeller, and put in a new belt, but was unable to get the new belt over the tensioning pulley...looks like it will be a two man job as the space is too tight to torque the tension pulley AND pull the new belt over.
Any tricks to getting the new belt on?

[Infinity]

Thanks again for helping out Infinity. Changed both fuel filters, and minimized fuel in the bilge...only a little from changing the primary filter. Primed the system four times as recommended with no leaks. Changed the impeller, and put in a new belt, but was unable to get the new belt over the tensioning pulley...looks like it will be a two man job as the space is too tight to torque the tension pulley AND pull the new belt over.
Any tricks to getting the new belt on?

You are welcome. I have gotten lots of helpful advise from this forum and always nice when you can pay it forward.
Yes on the belt! I actually had the exact same issue when I replaced my belt and could not get the belt over the lip of the tensioner pulley cause the new one is quite tight....I even left it in sun for a couple hours thinking it may loosen up some and then got my daughter out to help me and still was not able to get it over the tensioner lip, just barely too tight (and had to ask someone else what the trick was, lol)....So, rather than putting belt over the tensioner pulley last, slide the belt over the tensioner FIRST and then over one of the idler pulleys last, which does not have a lip and is smooth (I used the one near top Starboard side). Once I did that, worked like a charm!
Once done, just double check to make sure that belt is angled straight over the idler pulley and all the other wheels and you should be good to go. I actually left my belt cover off for a couple days just in case since much easier to service without having to remove it....and left my old belt in my toolkit that I keep on-board so I have a spare.

Each time I change impeller I run the boat for a while before taking it for a drive and get back into the engine compartment to inspect carefully and be sure there are no water leaks. (to make sure it gets up to operating temp and then goes back down...should not go over 165-170 at idle, when running down lake with that boat if I ever saw it going to 180, I would figure I had some kind of issue about to happen)

How did your old FCC filter look, you thinking that may have been your bogging issue? Love to hear back on if that took care of the issue, if there is still a problem, I suppose testing the fuel pumps would be my next guess....along with checking all fuel lines and fittings to be sure there is no air getting into system. Hope this takes care of it for you tho, love this engine, has been flawless for me and I am careful to keep her happy and maintained so it will keep treating me well.

[abpoulin]

Here are some photos from the weekend. The FCC filter was stuck and I had to drive long coarse thread screws in so I could grip it with pliers. I also provided a photo of the high pressure pump for the "it should not look like this" library. Also included is a photo of the primary filter. Who knows how old it is... Unfortunately, there was some debris in the fuel system.
When the fuel system is primed does it automatically bleed the air, or do you have to run it to get the air out?
Thanks for the tips on the belt...will definitely be a two man job.
In the pump photo you can get an idea of the work that will be required to clean up the engine compartment. It will require many man hours with de-greaser, a wire brush and paint.
As for the boat itself, it idles at a temperature of 158. The running temperature is maybe in the 160's?
I'll follow up once I get the belt on, and have had a chance to let the boat come to temperature.
We very much enjoy our time spent on the rivers and lakes...agreed...want to keep her happy and maintained.

[Infinity]

Wow, glad you got that replaced...those filters had to be effecting your performance!
I don't know if you have used any stabil in your fuel, may not be a bad idea to run a few tanks using the BLUE colored Stabil (sell it at Wal-Mart), its Marine specific. I actually use a treatment every couple tanks tho its probably not needed that much especially since I use only ethenol free fuel...but it cannot hurt and it makes me feel better doing it. You definitely wanna treat the fuel before winter layup....I double the recommended dose just before layup and make sure to run engine a good 15mins to make sure it makes it thru the entire system. I am not big on the "snake oils" and not sure what would be good to use a fuel system cleaner....perhaps its worth running a bottle of something thru the engine tho someone else would have to recommend something specific.

Due to the debris in fuel, I would change that FCC filter and other fuel filter again in the Spring (guessing they will catch a lot of that debris in fuel that is still left). I would change them AFTER you run thru first tank of gas in Spring and put a couple hours on it so after changing you are running mostly "clean" fuel. If its still bad, you may wanna consider draining your fuel tank and cleaning out as much as you can...just a thought. Not the easiest thing to do in these boats due to where the tanks are located, but possible with some effort.

Seeing engine and fuel system condition, probably a good idea to pull a couple plugs to see what kind of condition they are in.
Till you are ready to mess with cleaning up the engine area, I would buy some "fluid film" and coat those areas pretty well to prevent it from getting any worse.

No, you do not need to bleed any air (schrader valve is to check fuel pressure on the pumps so you can check psi and likely will just spurt fuel anyway), just prime system by keying ignition on/off like you already did. Should fire right up when you are ready. What I meant when I said that....was to make sure that fuel lines were not deteriorating and checking fittings to be sure they are tight and no cracks in fuel line, which could cause it to suck air, that could potentially cause a bogging issue tho I doubt that is what was going on, especially after seeing the filters. Am pretty sure fuel was your primary issue.

Its a 160 degree thermostat....so what you listed is perfect.

[distinguishedmotorsports]

I've got a real bad fuel smell and i think these filters could be the culprit on my 2010 409HP 230. going to try and get both filters for it today at the local stealership and see if it helps me out. i'm betting the filters have not been done in a while.

at full tank i would really bad gas smells and some coming out the vent, thinking of place a check valve or some loops in the line to prevent that.


anyone got any $0.02?

[Infinity]

I've got a real bad fuel smell and i think these filters could be the culprit on my 2010 409HP 230. going to try and get both filters for it today at the local stealership and see if it helps me out. i'm betting the filters have not been done in a while.

at full tank i would really bad gas smells and some coming out the vent, thinking of place a check valve or some loops in the line to prevent that.


anyone got any $0.02?

I am sure that your 2 fuel filters need to be replaced regardless, but should not be causing more smell just cause they are older...I would guess that you may have a leaking fitting somewhere if you have a bad smell at full tank (when full the level leaks a little out of one of the fittings is my guess). I could very well be wrong here, but this is my assumption. I would fill tank and then trace every fuel line/fitting and see if you can pin point the source.
When you say, at full tank, really bad smell and "some coming out vent"....do you mean there is actual fuel coming out of the vent....or vapor and bad smell?
You want to be careful adding loops or check valves in fuel tank cause if done wrong it can either cause it to not vent properly (cause loop will fill with gas and not be able to vent), or you will have difficulty filling the gas tank because it will need to "burp" and it will back up on you when trying to fill tank....these check valves have cause problems with some of the newer models when boat is not sitting at right angle, or when installed or not secured properly.

I actually saw a great video on this the other day and will try to find it and attach so you can watch it and get some tips on how to do it right.

[distinguishedmotorsports]

I am sure that your 2 fuel filters need to be replaced regardless, but should not be causing more smell just cause they are older...I would guess that you may have a leaking fitting somewhere if you have a bad smell at full tank (when full the level leaks a little out of one of the fittings is my guess). I could very well be wrong here, but this is my assumption. I would fill tank and then trace every fuel line/fitting and see if you can pin point the source.
When you say, at full tank, really bad smell and "some coming out vent"....do you mean there is actual fuel coming out of the vent....or vapor and bad smell?
You want to be careful adding loops or check valves in fuel tank cause if done wrong it can either cause it to not vent properly (cause loop will fill with gas and not be able to vent), or you will have difficulty filling the gas tank because it will need to "burp" and it will back up on you when trying to fill tank....these check valves have cause problems with some of the newer models when boat is not sitting at right angle, or when installed or not secured properly.

I actually saw a great video on this the other day and will try to find it and attach so you can watch it and get some tips on how to do it right.

Thank you for input, i think you may be right about the fuel tank fittings. I checked the vent on the hole and tightened that up to around 10ft lbs. While i have the fuel tank access panel out of the way i think i will go fit it up. just concerned if i do have a leak i'll dumping money into the bilge until i can fix it or trace the leak. i suppose the bilge will be really clean after though, just don't want that in my lake.

The boat will go from 33% fuel to 25% very quickly, and after 25% it just goes to 0% with another 15 minutes of run time left at moderate speeds. i'm wondering if the send unit is just not very accurate or if its a combination of a small leak and rough approximation of fuel. i'm estimating 30 minutes of run time from a 1/3 a tank to empty. just seems really short to me.

i say some is coming out the vent because the first time i surfed behind it, it felt like i had gasoline slightly in the wake when i fell. could feel it in my eyes. have never seen fuel physically come out the vent. it could be in the bilge too. i didn't find a check valve locally so i'm probably going to refrain from that.

i always pop both fuel fillers when fueling to prevent any slow downs to due to air pressure.

FCC filter looked decent, but some debris for sure. would make sense too since it ran out of fuel a few weekends ago. inline filter i'm waiting on the stealership to get today. old one was not in its designated holder, had slipped out aft.

[homer12]

To the OP, with that rust on your motor mounts and some corrosion on the engine, it looks like that boat was run in salt water. Do you know the history? My 2004 motor mounts don't look like that.

[Infinity]

Thank you for input, i think you may be right about the fuel tank fittings. I checked the vent on the hole and tightened that up to around 10ft lbs. While i have the fuel tank access panel out of the way i think i will go fit it up. just concerned if i do have a leak i'll dumping money into the bilge until i can fix it or trace the leak. i suppose the bilge will be really clean after though, just don't want that in my lake.

The boat will go from 33% fuel to 25% very quickly, and after 25% it just goes to 0% with another 15 minutes of run time left at moderate speeds. i'm wondering if the send unit is just not very accurate or if its a combination of a small leak and rough approximation of fuel. i'm estimating 30 minutes of run time from a 1/3 a tank to empty. just seems really short to me.

i say some is coming out the vent because the first time i surfed behind it, it felt like i had gasoline slightly in the wake when i fell. could feel it in my eyes. have never seen fuel physically come out the vent. it could be in the bilge too. i didn't find a check valve locally so i'm probably going to refrain from that.

i always pop both fuel fillers when fueling to prevent any slow downs to due to air pressure.

FCC filter looked decent, but some debris for sure. would make sense too since it ran out of fuel a few weekends ago. inline filter i'm waiting on the stealership to get today. old one was not in its designated holder, had slipped out aft.

Something is not right for sure and that is something you want to get figured out. This engine has been very efficient in my 24ft boat and I average 4.5-5GPH.
Sounds like you may have issue with fuel sending unit, but all boats I have been in read lower than they actually are, probably on purpose, so people do not run boat out of fuel and do not let it get below 25% because you don't run a boat level much of the time. I know mine shows roughly 20% less fuel than I actually have once I get down to about 3/4 tank. So what you are saying may be fairly normal...have you figured out what your approx GPH is? I fill each time I go out, so I can just calculate the hours on engine and divide by how many gallons I put in. Don't know if you trailer or keep boat on lift....I trailer so its easy for me.
Somehow you need to figure out where its leaking, mainly for safety since that is how boat fires/explosions happen from fuel vapors.....but also for environmental reasons. On a 2010, your fuel lines should be fine and not have deterioration, but there could be a leak in it somewhere due to stress crack...or a fitting that was to tight and causes a leak. I suspect that you have a loose fitting tho somewhere and that is likely to be the issue tho it seems odd that leak is so bad that you could actually be losing that much fuel without seeing it in the bilge.
Personally I would clean and dry bilge and then run it on a hose to figure out where leaking, you could put towels below engine to see if it leaks down there but from how you explain it....sounds like a pretty major leak! Your vent on fuel fill should not leak at all and if it does, should only be a small amount when tank is totally full....then stop once you have run boat for hour or so.

[abpoulin]

To the OP, with that rust on your motor mounts and some corrosion on the engine, it looks like that boat was run in salt water. Do you know the history? My 2004 motor mounts don't look like that.

homer12 - Sorry for the late reply, yes...the boat has been run in saltwater. Likely not rinsed after use prior to me buying it. However, the aft mounts have more rust that the fore mounts. Also, I noticed that the drain ports do not have hoses and dump water right on the engine mounts. I need to add hoses.

[abpoulin]

Infinity...thank you for all of your recommendations. The boat ran great yesterday...extremely pleased, however be looking for a prop remove/reinstall post. The channel we use to get to larger water is very tight and shallow (especially during low tide) and so I bent my prop yesterday as we were coming in...approx 100 yards from the ramp.

As it pertains to fuel smell, I always assumed that these engines tend to run to the rich side. Yesterday being the first time running the boat after changing both fuel filters, I was super paranoid about leaks checking both filters and opening the bilge port several times to see if I could smell fumes. It was clean every time. The exhaust smells rich when I flush the boat after use and occasionally on the water, but never smell fuel when we are making runs (even behind the boat). So really only when the boat is at idle RPM.

Thanks!