Wake Size, Erosion, and Banning of Watersports Discussion

[johnboyy7]

RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

should we ban the wind too........... it causes lots of damage. look at beach errosion. or maybe we should really step it up, ban pleasure craft all together... its a waste of gas (being as its not constructive) and green house gases ( no i dont believe in global warming), just think of all the noise polution and irritation this must cause for the fish (but the propulion is prolly good for them since it makes the water more O2 rich)

[NautiDave07]

RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

We should ban boating all together. Everyone go home and hug a tree. This is BS I do agree that a slalom boat puts out less wake and may cause less damage to shorelines and other property but if you punish one group you gotta punish them all. Tubers cause more problems tearing up the lake than wakeboarders do when they drive around crazy doing circles and stuff. If you ban one you gotta ban em all. What about a houseboat or river yacht that produces twice the wake as a 230. Or even barges for that matter. Slalom skiers crack me up (I used to do it) where we boat we stay away from your course and they still act like they own the lake and the best way to take over is to try and restrict others. If you want that flat water all day long move to a private lake or get up early before all the pleasure boaters. Keep this up and before you know it every boat will be restricted to idle speed on PUBLIC waterways. Try running the course at idle should be fun then. By the way if wakeboarding gets banned with ballast on my lake slalom won't be fun anymore either because the cove where the course is could easily be converted to party jet ski cove as we wakeboarders would have nothing to do but buy jet skis and tubes.

[WakeSlayer]

RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

In general, a windy day causes more damage than any of the watercraft we are talking about. Steady waves all day long versus a couple waves every 10 minutes. Think about it. It just doesn't even come close to being the same thing. If some d-bag is running 4000 lbs right off the marina's dock, that is them, not the boat or the sport causing the damage. The ballast bans are silly, and are really targeted more at the stereotyped attitude of the riders than anything. Erosion, my a$$. Just like the No Skateboarding signs at the mall. Let's ban people with gray hair driving a Caprice Classic while we are at it, too. Or anyone under 40 driving a crotch rocket.
You just cannot please everyone. I try my best to alternate with tubers and skiers alike. Everyone gets their chance to have the water how they want it. If someone is towing a kid on a tube or a skier, I shut down for a reasonable amount of time and let them go. Then we go, then they go. Etc. I make a huge wake with my boat surfing and I live on a 60 acre lake. It has to work like this or no one has fun. If some guest of a neighbor doesn't figure out the alternating part in short order, my wake makes it tougher for them to have fun than theirs does to us. For the most part this system works without discussion. I also invite neighbors to come out and try it with us. Then they see why we do what we do and would be more apt to ask for a ride than complain.

I have never quite understood the slalom purists owning the lake. They are almost all like that. Water sports have evolved in the last 20 years, get over it. We are all here to have fun.

Mutual respect is the solution. No one is going to ban me from doing what I do where I do it so they can have it their way.

Back to the engine question. I seriously doubt this is an issue, it is not like you are turning the motor or trans on it's side. Secondly, they are running considerably cooler than a car motor despite high rpms.

[DanielC]

There are groups that do want to ban all power boating. One of the main groups pushing the ban on wake enhancing devices on the Willamette, and more recently proposed a ban on any power boating in the Holgate channel I believe was the riverkeepers organizations. Just an opinion. I could be wrong.

They have a public front of a policy of wanting to improve the fish habitat, not disturbing wildlife, and birds. They of course do not agree with with using an internal combustion engine, that emits gases plants actually need to grow.

They want to return the rivers and lakes to the conditions they were 150 years ago. No power boats. No dams. No flood control. This is so they can paddle their canoes and kayaks without being disturbed. They are against us using modern things like engines, but it is OK for them to use Kevlar canoes, and blow molded kayaks.

They use divide and conquer tactics. They will single out jet skiers, or tubers, or wakeboards, or wake surfers, or skiers or fisherman, and try to pit one power boating group against another. They teamed up with some homeowners on the Willamette, and used the dock damage issue to help get the ban on wake enhancing devices in effect. They also got some people concerned about bank erosion on their side. So in the effort to prevent bank erosion, we got a ban on wakes by docks, when in fact the docks actually help break up the waves, and help protect the bank.

I guess this is a good place to point out that the Willamette river level normally varies from about 53 feet above sea level, in the Summer boating season to close to flood stage, 64 feet above sea level, during Winter. Sure, Summer time boat use causes some erosion, but a lot more erosion occurs in the Winter when the areas exposed in the summer are under 10 feet of water, and current flows are much higher.

Like someone testifying at the hearings before the ban on wake enhancing devices went into effect, "I am pretty sure the Grand Canyon existed before wake boarding got popular"

The Holgate channel on the Willamette river is in Portland city limits. It is an area of calm water out of the shipping channel, popular with waterskiers, and wake boarders. It is also popular with canoers, and kayakers. There has been a bald eagle nest on Ross Island, the land that separates the Holgate channel from the main stream of the Willamette. The Holgate channel is one of the few places you can find calm water, witha boat moored in downtown Portland.

The first idea proposed by the river keepers for the Holgate channel was a ban on all power boats. Then it was realized that they would have to fight commercial interests, and the proposal was modified to allow commercial use. They it was realized there was a fairly large fishing group, so again the proposal was modified to allow fishing, as long as you kept below 5 MPH.
The Marine board wisely decided not to enact this proposal, and the riverkeepers resubmitted it, with some publicity, and brought it up again, and the marine board again ruled not to enact this proposal.

And now back to the engine thing. Last night, Active Water Sports, in Oregon City had their "Evening with the stars" Winter promotion. Roy, from PCM was there, as he had been for the last many years. I asked him about the increased load from weight in wake boats causing increased engine wear, and his thought is that there is a greater load put on an engine in the vehicle towing the boat to the lake, than there was on the engine in the boat.

[johnboyy7]

im glad this dicussion is being typed out instead of verbel. just think of all the C02 we are saving. Al would be so proud.

dont fishing boats creat more harm due to most of them are still 2 stroke. hmmm

[kevfran99]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

i think we should ban wave runners too then. they respect nobody and do nothing but rough up the water.

I'm all for that! I also run 2K extra on top of my factory......but usually there is only a couple riders with me. I don't really like to pack out my boat.

That being said, if you outlaw ballast and overloading one side of the boat for surfing because the wakes are too big then you will have to do something about the wakes that come from 30-40' cruisers then! Their wakes are even bigger. Essentually you would be killing a lot of business by doing so.

[skiinxs]

RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

I don't frequent public water very often any more, but when I do it is very obvious that a few (not all) don't realize that they are legally responsible for their wake and any damage and / or injuries it causes.

[WakeSlayer]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

I don't frequent public water very often any more, but when I do it is very obvious that a few (not all) don't realize that they are legally responsible for their wake and any damage and / or injuries it causes.

So, for example, about 15 years ago a friend had his Flightcraft on Lake Minnetonka on a busy day. A cruiser went by and the subsequent wake came hard over his bow. It smashed his windshield, washed a couple items overboard, and wrecked his stereo. Are you telling me that the owner of the cruiser is on the hook for the damage and loss? Good luck there....

[skiinxs]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

Actually yes, that is the law. I have a good example from around 20 years ago. I was getting gas at Bridgeport marina on Lake of the Ozarks when I noticed a large (approx 40 foot) cruiser approaching at maximum killer wake speed. I pulled the hose out, tossed it on the dock, got my ropes off and pushed off in time. The boat behind me wasn't so lucky, the massive roller did heavy fiberglas damage to the boat behind me and injured a passenger. I had one of the early "bag phone" cell phones and called the water patrol as I followed the cruiser. About a half hour later the water patrol caught up, stopped the rather impolite gentleman piloting the cruiser and made him follow him back to the accident scene. He was cited and his insurance was responsible for the property damage and injury. In this case it was clear cut and there were lots of witnesses. The cruiser owner just couldn't believe he was being "put through all of this". I guess each case is different, but under the right circumstances the law can be enforced.
Dave

[WakeSlayer]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

I can see in that instance the cruiser being negligent and being held accountable. That is an extreme example. But what about in your average situation? Middle of the lake, busy day, pigged out wakeboard boat, and John Q. Bayliner takes one over the bow. Is that your problem or his to repair damage? If you are obeying right of way, rules of the road, are presumeably sober, and he is an idiot with his boat and how to handle it, how can the boarding boat be held accountable for damage or other? Just by being there? Our boats put out big wakes, but so do the cruisers. A good driver can overcome these situations, as you did.

[bchesley]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

Wakeslayer,

This is a clear cut good versus evil situation. They see us as evil and feel we need to stop enjoying what we love.

I know that sounds crazy but from where we sit its what is being said. There is always one who ruins it for everybody right. I cant help that guy, but I am responsible and will continue to be. We need to just get along and enjoy our passions and do it with regard for our neighbor no matter what he chooses to do.

[SuperSquirt]

If you want a lake with calm water and a pretty shoreline, you need to get off your computer and start thinking about how you can afford one. Quit wasting your time whining, wakeboarders don't want to hear it. We will do double-ups all day long if we want to, its public water.

[DanielC]

This is not about skiers vs wake boarders, or PWC's vs barefooters, or even tubers vs fisherman.
There are environmental groups that want to ban ALL power boating.
They see us as CO2 producing, shoreline erosion causing, useless users of petroleum products, that make noise and disturb poor defenseless waterfowl, and aquatic mammals.
They see us as a nuisance that makes wakes that make their canoes and kayaks roll over.
They are well organized politically, and have many politicians on their side.
They do use "divide and conquer" tactics to get one group of power boaters pitted against another.

I am not whining. I am telling you what has happened, and will continue to happen even more.
If you are a wakeboarder, and you find your favorite body of water is closed to wake enhancing devices, do not come whining to to me.
Supersquirt, The arrogant attitude expressed in your post is just making it easier for the groups that actually do want to ban power boating to get their goals accomplished.

[harddock]

RE: Re: RE: Re: Engine question

As a waterfront property owner I have to agree that there comes a point where the damage you do to my shoreline is going limit the fun I am going to let you have on my lake.. I have seen some very impressive wakeboard flips done on the back of a Malibu outboard without even an extended pylon. If you need waves that big go to a big lake and stay in the middle. or the ocean. I takes two to three times as long as your session to settle the water back down,. Your powertrain is being stressed as well.
But then again if you trailer your boat and are going to have it reposessed soon then go for it, what do you care about the boat or others.

[wakeboard1]

It seems a little ridiculous for wake enhancing devices to be banned. If water tanks get banned, then all fisherman will no longer be able to have live-wells as they are tanks on-board which hold water and make the wake larger.


The moral of the whole story is to be respectful of each other on the water and to mind the slow/no wake areas.


As for the whining skiers who say there is no need for more than a thousand pound ballast, here are some comparisons for other sports if we do what you say:

Snowboarding: Ban blue, black and backcountry skiing as they are too steep and dangerous for anyone to ride. You can do the same riding on green hills as steep hills.

Waterskiing: Limit waterskiing speeds to 25 mph and use two skis. Also, sell your nautique and ride behind a sea-doo since you want to save gas and have as small of a wake as possible to avoid erosion.

Football: Tackle football will be banned as it is a danger to everyone who plays. Flag football is all that is permitted as long as it is played on a basketball court. We no longer want to hurt the environment by digging cleats into grass.



Really, everyone should grow up and get along! Now, bring on spring so we can get back on the water!