Finally got everything installed...have some ?'s though....

[flaudia402]

First of all, I'm sorry, I don't have pictures up yet. Haven't gotten a chance to upload them, but I'll be sure to put some up once I get a chance.

Like the title states, I finally got everything installed. Had the new WS-420 come in, and fortunately it worked this time around. The last unit had a faulty tower output on it. My system ended up consisting of:

2 Pairs of NVS Prodigy's
(1) JL Audio 12W7 in a sealed box built to JL spec's
(1) Kicker ZX850.4 Amplifier (To power the towers)
(1) Kicker ZX750.1 Amplifier (To power the subwoofer)
Wetsounds WS-420 Equalizer
Scosche RCA's

My impressions first --everything sounds amazing. The NVS's look and sound unbelievable. The gentleman who gave me a hand with the install also does DJing on the side and mentioned that the tower speakers are as loud as some club speakers he's used. The speakers are meant to handle between 400-600 watts of power each. I'm giving them just around 450 watts of power or so.

The JL12W7 rocks the entire boat with the 750.1 pushing it. The birth sheet on the 750.1 states 934 watts, and the JL is getting nearly all of that. Which basically leads me to my first question. Does anyone know if the JL sub requires breaking in. Literally, I had to feed it all the ZX750.1 had to offer to get it to sound like it should. Is this sub just power hungry for more, or what? Could it be my sealed installation? It was built to specifications. I also have a vent in the cooler door area made by Earmark Audio to allow the sound to escape. Mind you, with amps gains all the way up, the sub sounds great, but this is of course at the mercy of the amplifier. I noticed after 4 hours of playing between minimum noise and maximum noise, the amplifier was quite toasty. Mind you, it was about 90 degrees out in Orlando this afternoon.

Next question, everything on the WS-420 works. Here is the issue thats bothering me. The NVS's hiss. Now, of course when you have the music cranking through them, you can't hear anything. But at light listening levels, in between lyrics if you have them down, or if you have them completely off, you can hear a slight hiss. Nothing loud or obnoxious, but noticable to my ear. From my understanding this is an issue of the gains. If I turn the gains down on the ZX850.4 the hissing will be way less prominent...but at the sacrifice of the intensity of the speakers. Anyway to solve this? The grounds are fine...everything is at the same point. The RCA's are tucked away with the power (wondering if this might be the issue). Turning the tower knob on the EQ to 0 does nothing, so that isn't an option.

Last question, I bought a 12v volt measurer that plugs in the 12v outlet right next to the steering wheel. Nifty little device for $12 from walmart. I know our boats have a voltmeter built in, but this one is just easier to read rather than scrolling through the different menus on the tach. It consistently reads around 14 when idling. When driving and cranking the tunes it'll be consistently around 13. And with the boat off, and just listening to the tunes at a moderate to light level, it'll be just around 12.3-12.7. We sat around for quite some time and just listened to the music out of towers (I turned the boat speakers/subwoofer to 0). Anyway, after about 4 hours or so, I noticed that the message "LOW VOLTAGE" kept popping up on the tach after the "low oil pressure" (a known issue...faulty sensor that SECC needs to replace under warranty). I looked at the voltmetere however and it had a steady 13 volts or so, and I double checked this on the gauges and the menu on the tachometer. So, what gives?

I'm hoping any alternator issues may be solved next season when I upgrade all my batteries. Thinking of going with (3) bluetop optimas. 2 paired together for the stereo and 1 for the starter. Is this going to be TOO taxing on my alternator...or should I stick to just 2 as it is.

Thats all the questions for now folks...you all have been great in answering everything so far. These are just my first impressions/questions since I've had everything installed. Thanks again!

[SuperSquirt]

RE: Finally got everything installed...have some ?

The hissing thing is common on horn compression drivers with lots of wattage. My Wet Sounds speakers do the same and so do my friends WS speakers, they are just too sensitive. I don't know of any way to get rid of it. I use a 2-farad capacitor on my 3 PDX amps and I have no problem losing voltage after hours of use, you might want to install one.

[AuMDLST]

RE: Finally got everything installed...have some ?

Your boat charges at 14.4 volts when running - you have 12 volt batteries that when under load without charging will fall below 12v - I do not know the sensitivity of the low voltage alarm but when the sub hits it places a big draw on the battery which could trigger the alarm - your voltage device may not be accurate enough to detect the difference. Something like a Fluke multimeter may show you the voltage drop you are not seeing but definitely is there due to the draw of the amp supplying the sub.

[AuMDLST]

RE: Finally got everything installed...have some ?

Supersquirt - I have NVS Entity's with Kicker 850.4 - very loud system and no hissing

[flaudia402]

Re: RE: Finally got everything installed...have some ?

Supersquirt - I have NVS Entity's with Kicker 850.4 - very loud system and no hissing

I think the main reason you might not have any hissing is because you have not installed a line driver/EQ in between everything. I'm assuming since you've installed the amplifier and hooked everything straight to the Clarion the Clarion isn't putting enough voltage out for any hissing to be noticed. Can you tell me what you have your gains set at on your 850.4?

[flaudia402]

Re: RE: Finally got everything installed...have some ?

Your boat charges at 14.4 volts when running - you have 12 volt batteries that when under load without charging will fall below 12v - I do not know the sensitivity of the low voltage alarm but when the sub hits it places a big draw on the battery which could trigger the alarm - your voltage device may not be accurate enough to detect the difference. Something like a Fluke multimeter may show you the voltage drop you are not seeing but definitely is there due to the draw of the amp supplying the sub.

I've watched how much my voltage drops everytime my subwoofer hits and and you are correct that it does drop. However, of the three devices measuring the volts they are all giving the same reading, the two measures of the boat and my store bought volt meter. Not to mention, when sitting, I generally turn the subwoofer down all the way and just let the tower speakers do their thing since no one is generally inside the boat to hear it (we're in the water hanging out).

[flaudia402]

RE: Re: RE: Finally got everything installed...have some ?

I received an e-mail back from Duane this afternoon. Here is his response regarding the hiss:

"Jonathan,

Firstly, I’m glad you for the most part like the speakers.
Regarding a “Hiss”; this is somewhat common when dealing with speakers that are as sensitive as the ones I use. But, as you say, it’s not the speakers causing it, it’s just that they are more sensitive to anomalies in the signal. Usually this is from the amplifier or sometimes an EQ depending on component quality and system installation. Yes gain also has a role and its affects can sometimes be minimized by increasing the line voltage and subsequently reducing the gain. Amplifiers with high Signal to Noise ratios will be better in this realm.
Sometimes this can even be traced back to a head unit that may need additional grounding. I have also seen where adding an additional ground connection from the RCA Grounds to the Head unit case or amp case can clean things up. If you try these things without success then you are left with component noise as the only source.
Hopefully you will find the cause and if so I’d appreciate letting me know what you ended up with.
I hope this was/is of some help.

Thanks again and have an NVS ride,
Duane"

[SuperSquirt]

I am hoping that when i switch over to the new Alpine head units, the 4-volt preamp outputs will fix my hissing problem. The current Clarion CMD5 has only 2 volt preamp and my gains are way up right now.

[Mikeski]

flaudia,

the hiss is caused from too much gain at low volumes. Turn down the amp sensitivity and turn up the eq sensitivity, this should reduce the amplification of the hiss, try the opposite if it gets worse. Call wetsounds and ask for guyver if you have questions, it's not the speakers, it's the amp and EQ settings causing your issue. I have a WS420 and have zero hiss (wetsound speakers but that should not matter in this situation). Power and RCA's together is a no-no but it causes whine, not hiss. If you have no whine leave it alone.

JLW7's are notorious for being power hungry, that's why I suggest you use something else when you first asked for sub advice. You have two choices, up the amp power or replace the sub with something more efficient. The combination you have will never drive the sub to it's potential. I will never put a W7 in any boat I own, they just require too much power. The Boston SPG 555 gets you about the same air displacement with half the power. You are going to sink way more $$$ into your power system and amp before you get that W7 producing to it's capacity. If you don't like the Boston, get a Kicker L7.

Most of the guys I know that previously ran blue tops have replaced them with other higher capacity AGM batteries. Blue tops are too sensitive to charging rates, they are easily killed if you do not have a decent charge controller. I am currently running a pair of Kinetic 2400's to the stereo and a little red top for starting. I think my system did just as well using much cheaper golf cart batteries. I am running the stock 100 amp alternator, it keeps up with everything the way I have my charging system configured (go combiner, not isolator).

[TravisFling]

Goodness Mikeski.. What are you an engineer or something??? hehehee... the man knows his schtuff... In many pro audio applications you'll get the infamous hiss that Ya'll are talking about and Mikeski is right on the money. You need to tune the system. there's no need to have the amp louder than you'll ever use it and then have the eq turned way down to gate the signal. Pure Shenanigans. When the music is as loud as you'll possibly ever listen to it your final "gate" (in this case your eq) should be pretty close to wide open and your amp should be turned down from there. I have my gains at like 4, maybe? on my Kicker 650.4 running 6 6.5's and I still don't turn it all the way up.
Second on the sub advice as well. I love the JL's but not for this application. That sub needs a LOT of power to do it's thing, and good call on the BA, Mike... Great sub's there and they remind me of NASCAR... left, left left... right?

[flaudia402]

flaudia,

the hiss is caused from too much gain at low volumes. Turn down the amp sensitivity and turn up the eq sensitivity, this should reduce the amplification of the hiss, try the opposite if it gets worse. Call wetsounds and ask for guyver if you have questions, it's not the speakers, it's the amp and EQ settings causing your issue. I have a WS420 and have zero hiss (wetsound speakers but that should not matter in this situation). Power and RCA's together is a no-no but it causes whine, not hiss. If you have no whine leave it alone.

JLW7's are notorious for being power hungry, that's why I suggest you use something else when you first asked for sub advice. You have two choices, up the amp power or replace the sub with something more efficient. The combination you have will never drive the sub to it's potential. I will never put a W7 in any boat I own, they just require too much power. The Boston SPG 555 gets you about the same air displacement with half the power. You are going to sink way more $$$ into your power system and amp before you get that W7 producing to it's capacity. If you don't like the Boston, get a Kicker L7.

Most of the guys I know that previously ran blue tops have replaced them with other higher capacity AGM batteries. Blue tops are too sensitive to charging rates, they are easily killed if you do not have a decent charge controller. I am currently running a pair of Kinetic 2400's to the stereo and a little red top for starting. I think my system did just as well using much cheaper golf cart batteries. I am running the stock 100 amp alternator, it keeps up with everything the way I have my charging system configured (go combiner, not isolator).

Regarding the hiss, I have properly tuned the amplifier and the EQ. I have also spoken to Guyver. The gains on the EQ at the top of the unit are less than half. The gains on the EQ with the knobs I keep turned up all the way, or just close to it. This way, I can continue to control the volume using the Clarion remote near the drivers side. The 850.4's gains are turned up literally no more than half. I might even turn them down some this up coming weekend. What I've come to find out is the 12volts the EQ puts out has to be much less. Has to be between 4-8 volts if that. I've ran 4 amps and EQ in my SUV and literally had all the gains on the amps down, and let the EQ do all the work. All of the things you've mentioned crossed my mind and I haven't had much time to tinker to get rid of the hiss due to Hurricane Fay. I am considering possibly adding a line driver to see if that may get rid of the hiss permanently.

For the JL, you are right that it is a power hungry subwoofer, however it was a choice I made when purchasing it. The 750.1 is not enough for it -- after doing some numbers I've figured the subwoofer is probably only getting between 400-500 watts to it. Since my Kicker amplifier is at 2 ohms and that subwoofer probably is in the ball park of 3-3.5 ohms. In a few months, when spring rolls around I will probably up the ante and go with a Kicker ZX1000.1 for the subwoofer alone. With the numbers I've calculated that it will probably get between 800-900 watts at that point and be happy.

For the batteries, I have considered the Kinetiks --- I'm concerned about the size however. I am thinking about running two of them also to power the system, and then running another battery for the starter. You say a red top...is that decent for what I need.

[wetsounds1]

flaudia402,

The WS 420 IS a line driver already. You do not want to add another one. Adding more voltage will only make it worse. What you have is called gain hiss. This can happen when you have a lot of line voltage or you gains are not matched.

Try what Mikeski suggested. He has the same EQ, HLCD tower speakers and zero noise. So try boosting the voltage on the 420 and keeping you amp gains down.

We have found it is better for most to have them keep the eq at the mid point as we found most people could not grasp the concept that the gain on an amp does not make it put out more power. So people would have the WS 420 gains maxed and their amp gains maxed and have gain hiss. That is why we recomend doing it that way and providing the less voltage.

Sounds like you understand the concept of letting the eq do all the work. So try turning the eq gains up. So your amps are barely up on their gains.

We have also found that many times in a system. Equipment like amps, or even a bad input stage on an amp is usually the root of everything. Also, cheap or bad rca's can contribute.

But as Duane mentioned. When dealing with compression speakers on the tower. You have a speaker that is much more effcient. So any little nuance will be heard.

Sometimes it is impossible to get 100% noise free. Each boat is different. Boats don't have a true ground either. You have high powered everything, line driver, amps, compression tower speakers etc....when you mute everything and there is no source, you are amplifying what is on the line. Which is nothing. Which is why you get the hiss.

We have probably one of the biggest systems you will see in a boat, 8 Kinteik batteries, over 5,000 watts of amps in a thermoelectric cooling amp rack, 3 XS-XXX 12's, 8 XS-650, pr of PRO 485 and pr of PRO60, WS 420, and boost box auto volume control. Add to that a ton of LED's and motorization in the amp racks. And it is a ton of stuff and power and different electronics etc...Zero noise. But we spent a lot of time on the system. A LOT.

From carefully laying out the wire. To tuning it. Think of your system as a hot rod. It is no longer a factory car you can get in turn the key and go. A hot rod takes a lot of time to get dialed in. And even when dialed in. Hot rods like to run wide open, they are not the best at idle.

Same goes with your system, they like to run wide open, not the best sitting at idle. So just relaize that it is going to take some time. These types of systems are not plug and play.

As for the batteries. get the Kinetik. I have run them in my last 2 boats and they are the best batts I have seen. The 2400 have a ton of amp hours as well. I have 4 HC2400 and 2 HC2000.

Tim
Wet Sounds

[flaudia402]

JLW7's are notorious for being power hungry, that's why I suggest you use something else when you first asked for sub advice. You have two choices, up the amp power or replace the sub with something more efficient. The combination you have will never drive the sub to it's potential. I will never put a W7 in any boat I own, they just require too much power. The Boston SPG 555 gets you about the same air displacement with half the power. You are going to sink way more $$$ into your power system and amp before you get that W7 producing to it's capacity. If you don't like the Boston, get a Kicker L7.

I recall you stating something different in a different post.

Try to keep a balance, use efficient gear. I would recomend against SPL specific subs like the XXX, wrong application in a boat where you want something efficient and musical. L7, Boston 555, W7, Type R, XS12, are all reasonable choices.
Good luck,
mikeski

[SuperSquirt]

Back to the hissing thing, this question is for Tim at Wet Sounds. My boat and stereo used to work perfectly with no hissing at all. One day (and still the only day), I left my boat outside and it actually got rained on (first time). I had my boat cover on tight, but the tower and WS 485's were exposed to some hard rain. The following morning, I took the cover off to see if my amps had gotten wet, and there was no water in that area at all. So I turned on the boat to see if everything still worked and thats when the hissing from my 485's began. I even lowered my tower to see if there was any water in the speaker housing and just a little came from the grille itself. Before this rainy day, they worked and sounded perfectly. So my question is are these speakers really weather/water proof?

[wetsounds1]

Yes the speakers are waterproof. Although we always recomend using some covers if you leave them outside and in the rain as you do not want to get water into the horn itself. As the housings and drivers and surrounds are full marine rated but with a horn speaker, you cannot fully protect the internals of the compression driver itself.

Speakers will reproduce what they are fed. So if you are getting a hissing sound. It is probably one of your source components. Head Unit, EQ, amplifier etc....If you are using a non marine rated amp. Moisture in the air can still affect them even if it is not direct water.

Tim
Wet Sounds