Single or Multiple Subs?

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  • EarmarkMarine
    Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
    • Mar 2008
    • 699

    • Dallas, TX


    Single or Multiple Subs?

    This isn’t intended to be critical of any approach that is contrary to my opinion. The subject has come up in this and other forums. It’s a subject we have experience in and audio is something I’m passionate about. Questions and other opinions are welcome.

    When you add equal power with each additional sub then obviously two subs will be louder than one and three will be louder than two and so on. There will be a list of ‘howevers’ however.

    Subwoofers have considerable mass so just adding more subs with more surface area won’t necessarily net more output without adding more power too.

    But what you might find interesting is that you’ll rarely achieve the efficiency with multiple subs as you will with a single sub. Although multiples will put out more it’s the first subwoofer that is likely to be the most productive.

    It’s a little different than in a hatchback coupe or SUV where multiple subs are symmetrically loaded. Everything is pretty much equal in a vehicle. The subs share the same baffle and compound load. If you double the drivers and power you’re bound to get double (+ 3 dB) the results.

    But a boat is decidedly different. In a boat the first subwoofer usually is in the best available locations and is optimumly loaded. The second sub location is often a compromise. Usually the third subwoofer is even a greater compromise. In a boat, with each added sub, we have changes in enclosure size or type or loading in respect to the surrounding boundaries. We just wouldn’t see many scenarios in a boat with two or more big woofers symmetrically loaded.

    The first of many things to note in understanding why is that amplitude and phase are interdependent. If you change the amplitude or frequency response then you have simultaneously altered the phase response and vice versa.

    A woofer, once loaded into an enclosure, has a new amplitude response and corresponding phase response. Whether the enclosure is large, small, sealed or ported, each will have unique characteristics pertaining to frequency response and phase response. And, we have to take this one step further. The woofer’s final amplitude and phase response is the summation of the woofer, its enclosure and how it is immediately loaded. Loading would describe the surrounding boundaries including lockers, consoles, cavities, decks, coaming, etc. Whether direct-radiating, down-loaded, vented out of a storage compartment or in combination, these factors become an extension of the raw driver just like its enclosure.

    So, now we have assymmetically-loaded multiple subwoofers with random amplitude and phase responses. Dissimilar speakers do not sum as efficiently as identical speakers. There’s more information on this if needed. You now have several woofers, that are different based on their varying enclosures and loading, that sum or don’t sum or may even subtract to a lesser degree depending on your listening position as you move around.

    Will multiple subs in different locations play louder? Sure. Even a clumsy design will play louder. How is sound quality? To a trained ear it sounds blurred with less tonal construction.

    How about efficiency? All those subs, enclosures and amplifiers will not be as efficient or cost-effective as the first subwoofer.

    It is hard to beat the production of a simple approach with a single sub of the highest quality, properly powered, in the optimum enclosure that takes advantage of the most ideal location including the surrounding boundaries.

    Its also a good idea to optimize the design efficiency in consideration of our limited charging systems.

    That being said, for anyone who wants us to add a ton of subs and amps to their boat, I’m totally on board!

    David
    Earmark Marine
    Earmark Marine[URL="http://www.earmarkmarine.com"]
    www.earmarkmarine.com[/URL]
  • bchesley
    1,000 Post Club Member
    • Feb 2006
    • 1252

    • Tyler, Texas


    #2
    RE: Single or Multiple Subs?

    David,

    I cant tell you how much I appreciate your input into this forum. I am not an audiofile by any means, but I have started to take an interest and have been listening attentively. I should post the results of my first attempt at a sub box and placement design pretty soon.
    2001 Super Air Nautique
    Python Powered
    100 Amp Alternator
    Dual Batteries
    Many upgrades coming...

    Comment

    • Mikeski
      1,000 Post Club Member
      • Jul 2003
      • 2908

      • San Francisco, CA

      • Current 2005 SV 211, due for upgrade! GS22 or GS24 perhaps? Previous

      #3
      RE: Single or Multiple Subs?

      Hi David,

      Weekend before last we were on a houseboat with three boats linked together anchored off the back and playing tunes back towards the houseboat. All three boats had Wetsounds tower speakers, a single 485, a threesome, and my pair of 485's. For tower loudness neither could hold a candle to my pair of 485's but the boat with the threesome had a single slot ported JL10W7 in an off the shelf enclosure that was freakishly loud. My boat has a combination of a single 12 in a sealed box and my goofy box with four TB 6.5" subs ported, the third boat has a single ported 12 that has never impressed me whatsoever, the boat with the JL blew both of our boats away in the low frequency department. I kept looking for additional subs in the threesome boat but that little 10 was unbelievable. Now my head is spinning trying to figure out what to do for next summer. At this moment I am thinking a single slot ported 12 is going to be in my boat. I have been debating where to point things, current thought is sub facing the side of the hull and the port open towards the driver but I am still thinking about the sound waves, maybe both the sub and the slot should be on the same plane facing the driver?

      Comment

      • EarmarkMarine
        Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
        • Mar 2008
        • 699

        • Dallas, TX


        #4
        RE: Single or Multiple Subs?

        Mike,

        Without seeing and hearing what you did I couldn't be certain as to why. But, I am not surprised that it was a JL W7. A couple of possiblities come to mind. Many off-the-shelf enclosures are tuned for a peaky, maximum output. They're tuned higher and sound like a one-note-resonator but can be stupid loud. If its a JL pre-packaged sub/enclosure then you can be sure its executed correctly.

        It could be the tuning as people often narrow or restrict the bandwidth in open-field similar to the settings used in a vehicle which reduces the output. He may be running more bandwidth. There are also electronic enhancements like a boost in conjunction with a steep and protective highpass filter. If the boost was coincidental with the tuning frequency where the driver is very damped then he could be putting out crazy S.P.L. (is that cheating?)

        The characteristics of acoustical loading at low frequencies gets a little involved. Give me a shout when you're in the planning stage. Sounds interesting.

        David
        Earmark Marine
        Earmark Marine[URL="http://www.earmarkmarine.com"]
        www.earmarkmarine.com[/URL]

        Comment

        • docderwood
          • Jul 2008
          • 51



          #5
          Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

          If so, which one/which box? Would love to ditch the stock POS polk free air in my 08 230 and replace it with something better. Would like to give up as little storage space as possible, though (surfboard fits perfect in there). Have thought about one of these JL boxes with something to lift them off of the floor to allow the board to go underneath (or, alternatively, on top if you take out the stock polk).

          Would need to upgrade the venting in the storage compartment the polk is in though. Any suggestions or guidance?

          thx!

          Comment

          • EarmarkMarine
            Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
            • Mar 2008
            • 699

            • Dallas, TX


            #6
            RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

            docderwood,

            Don't use an automotive box in a boat. Its unlikely to survive a single season although the carpet can conceal the failed seams for some time.

            You mentioned "free-air". I was under the impression the Nautique started using free-air subs in '09 modles and that '08 used a MOMO 10-inch in a somewhat sealed, molded enclosure within the port side locker. Could you confirm what you have?

            David
            Earmark Marine
            Earmark Marine[URL="http://www.earmarkmarine.com"]
            www.earmarkmarine.com[/URL]

            Comment

            • docderwood
              • Jul 2008
              • 51



              #7
              Re: RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

              Originally posted by EarmarkMarine
              docderwood,

              Don't use an automotive box in a boat. Its unlikely to survive a single season although the carpet can conceal the failed seams for some time.

              You mentioned "free-air". I was under the impression the Nautique started using free-air subs in '09 modles and that '08 used a MOMO 10-inch in a somewhat sealed, molded enclosure within the port side locker. Could you confirm what you have?

              David
              Earmark Marine
              David,

              You are probably right in that it isn't truly "Free air". It is in a plastic enclosure that is bolted to the top of the storage compartment. Any suggestions/recs would be appreciated, including anything custom you could do would be appreciated. Feel free to PM me.

              Comment

              • bchesley
                1,000 Post Club Member
                • Feb 2006
                • 1252

                • Tyler, Texas


                #8
                RE: Re: RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

                Ok, the results are in and dag nabit that XS-XXX 12 is just plain ridiculous. I went to the lakehouse today to start moving my heater to make room for the box and decided to plug it in and see how it sounded. I was totally blown away at how loud it is. I had a polk SR 10 in an audioformz enclosure that I thought was pretty loud and clean. I turned the system on and played the ten, then proceeded to switch to the 12 and I know my neighbors have to be pissed at me. The sub hit so hard my pliers were sliding accross the floor as the boat vibrated. It looked like that quit smoking commercial where the smokes slide off the table and in the trash from a vibrating phone. I am pumped to get the project finished now. Will post pictures soon.
                2001 Super Air Nautique
                Python Powered
                100 Amp Alternator
                Dual Batteries
                Many upgrades coming...

                Comment

                • EarmarkMarine
                  Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
                  • Mar 2008
                  • 699

                  • Dallas, TX


                  #9
                  RE: Re: RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

                  docderwood,

                  The MOMO sub is anemic in any sealed box but really comes alive in a bass-reflex enclosure. We have ready-made waterproof enclosures for a 10-inch MOMO with binding post terminal cup and HDPE mounting pad/risers.

                  You can run a factory MOMO 10-inch or a JL 10W3 upgrade sub with the factory amplification. The results are great. Anything more substantial will require a larger amplifier.

                  We have built custom-shaped 10-inch bass-reflex enclosures that hug and conform to the front of the locker in order to maintain the cooler or storage room.

                  I'll PM some specifics.

                  David
                  Earmark Marine
                  Earmark Marine[URL="http://www.earmarkmarine.com"]
                  www.earmarkmarine.com[/URL]

                  Comment

                  • skiking
                    • Jun 2007
                    • 118

                    • TX


                    #10
                    RE: Re: RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

                    bchesley, Can't wait to see the upgrade! I need to post my stereo upgrade, but play surfing and boarding have been taking up all my free time.
                    1999 Super Sport Nautique
                    PerfectPass Wakeboard Pro
                    100amp Alternator Upgrade and 2 - Optima Blue Tops
                    Wetsounds, JL Audio, Alpine sound system
                    3-Jabsco Ballast Puppies
                    1- Fly High Center Sack 650lbs and 2 - Fly High Rear 750lbs

                    Ballast Install - http://planetnautique.com/vb3/showth...allast-Install

                    Comment

                    • bchesley
                      1,000 Post Club Member
                      • Feb 2006
                      • 1252

                      • Tyler, Texas


                      #11
                      RE: Re: RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

                      I will post next week for sure. I have a few other items to address. It absolutely pounds though.......
                      2001 Super Air Nautique
                      Python Powered
                      100 Amp Alternator
                      Dual Batteries
                      Many upgrades coming...

                      Comment

                      • NickJ
                        • Oct 2009
                        • 2



                        #12
                        RE: Re: RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

                        If you go with a single sub, what is the best location for the sub? I'm trying to plan out the system for my boat, but I can't decide which direction to go for the subs. Here are the options I've come up with. 1-12" under drivers dash, 2-12" one under drivers dash and one in passenger storage compartment, or 1-15" in passenger storage. Under the dash, I have room to build a box that would be about 2.5 cu. ft., which would be too small for a ported 15" sub. Of the options I've listed, which would be the loudest? I want it to be loud, not really looking for the best sound quality, but I don't want it to sound like crap either. The passenger locker would have room for a 15", but since it would be enclosed in the compartment, I assume it wouln't be as loud? I see some people on here vent their storage compartment, but will venting the compartment be as loud as if the sub was out in the open? I haven't bought any equipment yet, but I do have an RE XXX 12 sitting in the garage.

                        Comment

                        • EarmarkMarine
                          Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
                          • Mar 2008
                          • 699

                          • Dallas, TX


                          #13
                          RE: Re: RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

                          Nick,

                          A 13-inch or 15-inch just have a lower resonance that produce a more authoritive low end. A ton of 10s may play louder than one is but cant duplicate the same feeling that penetrates to your marrow. However, a 12-inch in a bass-reflex enclosure can play every bit as loud as a 15-inch sealed, and, depending on the sub, can be easier to drive.

                          If you've already got a 12-inch, use it in an oversized bass-reflex enclosure and locate it under the dash with both the driver and port playing into open air.

                          You can tune a smaller or larger bass-reflex enclosure to the same frequency, but in this case, you'll see some definite benefits with the larger version. You can side fireboth the woofer and port into the hull, but in this case with the larger enclosure consuming so much of the cavity and leaving less external displacement available, I wouldn't recommend it.

                          Your assumption about the port locker is correct in that even if you adequately vent the compartment, the compliance of that airspace and the adjoining gunnel cavities will rob you of some of the energy. In many of the applications the port locker location is justified if you don't have enough space under the driver's dash. In your situation it sounds like you're in good shape on the driver's side. As stated in the OP, I'm not a fan of combining different locations with random phase responses.

                          David
                          Earmark Marine
                          Earmark Marine[URL="http://www.earmarkmarine.com"]
                          www.earmarkmarine.com[/URL]

                          Comment

                          • NickJ
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 2



                            #14
                            RE: Re: RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

                            David,

                            Thanks, that will definetly help me make some decisions. I have another question for you. I see you recommend the JL and Alpine PDX amps a lot. From what I've seen, these are about the only amps that put out their full rated RMS at 4ohms. Does an amp run more efficient at 4ohms vs 2 or 1? I'm looking for an amp rated at around 2000w rms, but all the amps I've looked at are rated at 2 or 1ohm. I realize that 2000w is 2000w, but obviously on the boat I want the most efficient setup possible. Hopefully that's not a stupid question. Also, any idea how mush longer the sale on the Hollowpoints will last? I plan on picking up some 770 from you, but it's kind of the last thing I need.

                            Comment

                            • EarmarkMarine
                              Senior Member of PLANETNAUTIQUE
                              • Mar 2008
                              • 699

                              • Dallas, TX


                              #15
                              RE: Re: RE: Anyone have a JL Wedge Box in a 230?

                              Nick,

                              The HollowPoint sale ends Oct. 31st.

                              I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the XXX 2000 watt thermal power handling. Dynamic power might be relevant for short bursts in an S.P.L. contest but if you overdrive your amplifier, thereby compressing the power, you can toast a woofer with far less power. Everybody's copper burns at the same temperature.

                              What's more important in everyday use is that you have enough power to drive the woofer to it's peak Xmax and do so under total control. If that can't be done with a 1000 watt amplifier then the sub is a dog. I don't think that's the case with the RE.

                              Most amplifiers will drop 10% in efficiency as you half the impedance below 4-ohms. The JL Audio HD, for example, maintains the same power, distortion and efficiency under a wide range of loads and supply voltage. It does so by running a quick diagnostic of the load in a second upon turn-on and optimizing the amplifier for that particular load. Btw, JL Audio will be delivering a HD1200.1 Class D in the upcoming months.

                              Also, I wouldn't hesitate to put the 1000 watt PDX to use.

                              Btw, if you have an amplifier with an unregulated power supply that only delivers under minimum impedance and maximum voltage, how much power is it really putting out under real world conditions? Voltage doesn't stay at 14 volts for long. At 60 percent efficiency, 40 percent of the supply is converted to heat. As current draw increases, voltage falls and power plummets so you've got to put unqualified specs in perspective. Efficiency matters!

                              David
                              Earmark Marine
                              Earmark Marine[URL="http://www.earmarkmarine.com"]
                              www.earmarkmarine.com[/URL]

                              Comment

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