03 210 Cabin amp and sub

[beach]

My 03 210's stereo was shot when I got it(crappy car headunit, cracked speaker cones, old A/B amps, no bow speakers). I'm finally getting around to fixing the stereo. The only thing that I have bought so far is Polk MM651UM speakers for the cabin+bow. I had a few questions that I was looking for some input on:

I searched for a bit and it seemed like ported subs were reccommened for boats. It also seems like people recommend locating the sub behind the kick panel on an older 210. I found this thread showing what was involved in installing a sub in this location:
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/m...tml?1121039952

But it seems pretty cramped and they were only installing a standard box, not a ported box. Has anyone installed a ported 10" sub behind the kick panel on an 02+ 210? Specifically with a factory heater? I'm also trying to not lose a ton of legroom. I don't listen to dub step or anything with a lot of artificial bass; I'm looking for a balanced sound, so I was hoping I could get some great sound quality out of a single 10" sealed or ported sub. Anyone's input/experiences would help.

I was looking at getting the Clarion CMS2 heat unit+the MW1 remote. Does the clarion Bluetooth support still suck? It seems like people really like the new Polk head unit, but there is only a small screen less Polk remote available.

Also, I was looking at the Polk d5000.5(is there any difference between it and the PPI amp?) amp for the interior speakers+sub. Should I be looking at the kicker or JL M series amps? The wet sounds and JL MHD amps are awesome, but are they really worth it for someone that doesn't listen to their music really loud? They're a lot of $. Also if I went with one of the cheaper amps, is it ever better to run the bow speakers off the head unit, or should I wire 2 pair off ch 1+2 and 1 pair off 3+4?

Sorry for the wall of text, thanks for any help!

[nauty220]

I had an 03 210. Earmark built a 1 cu. ft side fire box with a 12' sub. I am tall and didn't want to lose any leg room with putting a sub behind the kick panel so I went with putting it in the passenger side compartment.

Regarding the amps, I am not a fan of JL because i feel for the price there are better options with more output per channel. For example, the MHD amp for $1000 bucks is limited 100 watts per channel, for that amount of money your get 185 watts per channel.

[a0128]

While the installation from the WW link was beautiful and masterfully crafted, I'd be worried someone would put their foot into the subwoofer while driving. I'd like to see it in a more protected location. Perhaps using a different subwoofer with a grill would solve that issue.

[a0128]

IFor example, the MHD amp for $1000 bucks is limited 100 watts per channel, for that amount of money your get 185 watts per channel.

The one benefit to the JL HD amps (or MHD) is the output is consistent across all input voltages. That is to say with the engine is running (14.4v) or engine off (12.5v) you are going to get the same power output (100w @ 4ohms) per channel. Most amps will output less power at 12.5v than they will at 14.4v and the manufacturer's specs usually only show output for 14.4v.

I am not sure how important that is to the OP that would justify the higher pricing.

beach - you may want to look at the Wet Sounds HT6 as an amp to power your in-boats. At $549.99 (only $100 more than the 5000.5) it will output 110 w x 6 @ 4 ohms. Perfect for the MM651UMs you bought.

[David Analog]

Quote, "Regarding the amps, I am not a fan of JL because i feel for the price there are better options with more output per channel. For example, the MHD amp for $1000 bucks is limited 100 watts per channel, for that amount of money your get 185 watts per channel."

The JL Audio HD amplifier is strictly regulated so it delivers the same power from an 11 volt supply as it does with a 14.4 volts supply. You can't deliver 14.4 volts in a boat under any circumstances. And with an unregulated amplifier you will typically lose 25% of the power with a 12.5 volt supply. So that 185 watts becomes 139 watts. Then as the voltage is modulated down to 11.5 volts from bass program material you lose additional output power.
The JL Audio HD/MHD scheme provides stability and greater immunity to these factors. You also get the sound quality benefit of every circuit and every filter and so on getting a consistent voltage supply versus low level processing circuitry getting voltage that fluctuates all over the place.
Plus, the JL Audio HD amplifier has dual power supplies so that there is total isolation between highpass and lowpass sections, not to mention the highest switching speed of any automotive or marine Class D analog switching amplifiers, not to mention a proprietary feedback topology only shared by a few esoteric Class D home amplifiers. I've only scratched the surface.
Bottom line....you've got to look a little deeper than one surface spec to determine the real value. Unqualified specs don't mean a lot.

[beach]

I had an 03 210. Earmark built a 1 cu. ft side fire box with a 12' sub. I am tall and didn't want to lose any leg room with putting a sub behind the kick panel so I went with putting it in the passenger side compartment.

Regarding the amps, I am not a fan of JL because i feel for the price there are better options with more output per channel. For example, the MHD amp for $1000 bucks is limited 100 watts per channel, for that amount of money your get 185 watts per channel.

I was hoping to get the sub out from underneath the observers seat to free up some storage. I hadn't thought of putting a side firing sub there though, thanks for the input.

While the installation from the WW link was beautiful and masterfully crafted, I'd be worried someone would put their foot into the subwoofer while driving. I'd like to see it in a more protected location. Perhaps using a different subwoofer with a grill would solve that issue.

I agree. I mainly posted that link because it showed what they had to relocate to install the sub in that location.

The one benefit to the JL HD amps (or MHD) is the output is consistent across all input voltages. That is to say with the engine is running (14.4v) or engine off (12.5v) you are going to get the same power output (100w @ 4ohms) per channel. Most amps will output less power at 12.5v than they will at 14.4v and the manufacturer's specs usually only show output for 14.4v.

I am not sure how important that is to the OP that would justify the higher pricing.

Guest - you may want to look at the Wet Sounds HT6 as an amp to power your in-boats. At $549.99 (only $100 more than the 5000.5) it will output 110 w x 6 @ 4 ohms. Perfect for the MM651UMs you bought.

Thanks, I hadn't thought of the Wetsounds HT6 as an option. I actually went to their site and saw their HT AS-10 sub also. A 10" sub in a fiberglass box with a built in amp for $600 seems too good to be true. That's the same price as the JL 10" marine sub with their box without any amp. I think I'll try to take some measurements and see if I could fit either of those boxes behind the kick panel. It would be nice to not have to worry about a sub box.

The JL Audio HD amplifier is strictly regulated so it delivers the same power from an 11 volt supply as it does with a 14.4 volts supply. You can't deliver 14.4 volts in a boat under any circumstances. And with an unregulated amplifier you will typically lose 25% of the power with a 12.5 volt supply. So that 185 watts becomes 139 watts. Then as the voltage is modulated down to 11.5 volts from bass program material you lose additional output power.
The JL Audio HD/MHD scheme provides stability and greater immunity to these factors. You also get the sound quality benefit of every circuit and every filter and so on getting a consistent voltage supply versus low level processing circuitry getting voltage that fluctuates all over the place.
Plus, the JL Audio HD amplifier has dual power supplies so that there is total isolation between highpass and lowpass sections, not to mention the highest switching speed of any automotive or marine Class D analog switching amplifiers, not to mention a proprietary feedback topology only shared by a few esoteric Class D home amplifiers. I've only scratched the surface.
Bottom line....you've got to look a little deeper than one surface spec to determine the real value. Unqualified specs don't mean a lot.

You always get what you pay for, but I'm thinking the JL HD amps and the wetsounds SD amps would be more than I'm willing to spend, even if I looked used. I hoping that since I'll be listening to mp3s (not flac) and not planning on playing too loud; I could get away with a cheaper amp without having to worry too much about damaging my speakers.

Thanks for the help!

[David Analog]

It may be a little more work to install a sub under the driver's side but the sound quality will always be better from a direct-radiating sub versus a sub concealed in a storage locker even when that locker is vented. For that reason I would prefer a direct-radiating 10" on the driver's side over a 12" in the observer's compartment.
The observer's compartment tends to filter out a lot of the faster bass transients and leading edge impulses. More tactile bass with less tonal construction. It also adds a phase delay just like you would have with a ported box. If you have a ported box then you have the combined delay of both. And that makes a coherent transition with the coaxials difficult. On the flip side, a larger woofer in a larger box is the only way to get the extra leverage and output than many are looking for. And the only place that will fit is in the observers compartment.
My preference is based on the type of music I listen to. My preference is not necessarily going to be the same as everyone else.

[a0128]

I could get away with a cheaper amp without having to worry too much about damaging my speakers.

Actually - you'll likely stand a greater chance of damaging your speakers with a cheaper (i.e. lower quality) amp than with a high quality unit.

Also, unlike listening inside where the ambient noise can be controlled, playing music outside will (in some cases) tend to lead you to play the music louder to overcome all the extraneous noise (imagine cruising down the lake or river @ 25mph). I'd be careful scrimping in this area. Make sure the amp is properly matched to the speakers and correctly tuned.

Do it right the first time even if you have to wait while saving up for the right components. Higher initial costs will oftentimes be cheaper in the long run as you will not be replacing under powered or damaged pieces in your quest for quality sound.

[beach]

It may be a little more work to install a sub under the driver's side but the sound quality will always be better from a direct-radiating sub versus a sub concealed in a storage locker even when that locker is vented. For that reason I would prefer a direct-radiating 10" on the driver's side over a 12" in the observer's compartment.
The observer's compartment tends to filter out a lot of the faster bass transients and leading edge impulses. More tactile bass with less tonal construction. It also adds a phase delay just like you would have with a ported box. If you have a ported box then you have the combined delay of both. And that makes a coherent transition with the coaxials difficult. On the flip side, a larger woofer in a larger box is the only way to get the extra leverage and output than many are looking for. And the only place that will fit is in the observers compartment.
My preference is based on the type of music I listen to. My preference is not necessarily going to be the same as everyone else.

I think that it will be worth the extra difficulty to put a sub under the helm, considering the amount of storage I will gain and the improvement in sound quality. Have you listened to either the wetsounds HT AS-10 or the JL W5 in JL's box? They look to both be fairly compact and I like that both have fiberglass enclosures.

Actually - you'll likely stand a greater chance of damaging your speakers with a cheaper (i.e. lower quality) amp than with a high quality unit.

Also, unlike listening inside where the ambient noise can be controlled, playing music outside will (in some cases) tend to lead you to play the music louder to overcome all the extraneous noise (imagine cruising down the lake or river @ 25mph). I'd be careful scrimping in this area. Make sure the amp is properly matched to the speakers and correctly tuned.

Do it right the first time even if you have to wait while saving up for the right components. Higher initial costs will oftentimes be cheaper in the long run as you will not be replacing under powered or damaged pieces in your quest for quality sound.

I understand that overworking an underpowered amp is how you damage speakers. The cheapest amp I was looking at was the Polk d4000.4 or d5000.5, since they seem to pop up for sale here regularly. I'm also looking at the Kicker KXM amps, Wetsounds HT amps, and the JL M series. Those seem to be in my price range, but I kinda doubt that I can truly compare the power output ratings, aka I'm not sure how much I should trust the manufacturers ratings.

Thanks again for the help!

[David Analog]

Quote,"I understand that overworking an underpowered amp is how you damage speakers. The cheapest amp I was looking at was the Polk d4000.4 or d5000.5, since they seem to pop up for sale here regularly. I'm also looking at the Kicker KXM amps, Wetsounds HT amps, and the JL M series. Those seem to be in my price range, but I kinda doubt that I can truly compare the power output ratings, aka I'm not sure how much I should trust the manufacturers ratings."

Overworking an underpowered amplifier is no more likely to damage speakers. That is a myth. Too much power, and power alone, creates more thermal energy than the speaker can dissipate which leads to damage. If an underpowered amplifier is potentially harmful then an overpowered amplifier is even a much greater threat.

[a0128]

I'd consider the JL XD600/6v2 or the Wet Sounds HT6 for your 6 in-boat speakers. Either would be a great match with your Polk speakers. I'd stay away from the Polk 5000.5 and 4000.4 as well as the JL MHD / HD series amps for the in-boats if for no other reason than none offer six discrete channels. Yes you can take the 5000.5 and drive the bow speakers from the 5th channel but the result will be 4 cockpit speakers receiving 70w each and the 2 bow speakers receiving 100w each (all @ 4 ohms).

I believe the direct radiating sub recommendation is similar to what was detailed in the WW thread. Putting a WS HT AS-10 BEHIND the solid kick panel under the helm would not be much different from a sound perspective than putting it under the observer's seat (assuming I correctly understood the post that talked about the direct radiating sub).

[MLA]

"Yes you can take the 5000.5 and drive the bow speakers from the 5th channel"

How? Its a low-pass only sub chnl. correct?

[beach]

If I was using a 5 channel amp, then I would wire one pair of speakers on ch1 as a 2 ohm load, one pair on channel 2 as a 2 ohm load, and the remaining pair on channels 3 and 4 as a 4 ohm load. I would use the 5th channel for a sub.

No matter what sub I install, I will make a new kick panel out of starboard(guessing this is what it is currently made out of) and put a cutout for the subwoofer in the new kick panel.

David, thanks for the correction.

[David Analog]

"I believe the direct radiating sub recommendation is similar to what was detailed in the WW thread. Putting a WS HT AS-10 BEHIND the solid kick panel under the helm would not be much different from a sound perspective than putting it under the observer's seat (assuming I correctly understood the post that talked about the direct radiating sub)".

It varies according to a number of factors. The two main elements are the size of the cavity and the size of the opening.
The observer's compartment can be expansive with the adjoining gunnel cavities. The size of that displacement represents the compliance of that air mass.
The vent area represents resistance.
It's a matter of ratio between the two.
With a large cavity and a relatively small vent as a ratio, there's little impetus for the bass energy to pass thru the vent. So you have considerable losses.
It has a very non linear impact in both filtering and in a pronounced phase delay.
There is also a secondary issue of the subwoofer cavity sharing space with the coaxials. In that case the sub energy can seriously modulate the coaxials on that side of the boat resulting in dirty mids.
A side-firing sub might perform much closer to 'direct radiating' if the under-helm cavity is small, and the area over the top of the kick panel façade is large. It can also benefit from the boundaries of a 5-sided box folded around it if that driver's side space is small. So side-firing will often pick up a bit of low bass emphasis and lose a bit of transient attack....but to a more tolerable degree.

[a0128]

"Yes you can take the 5000.5 and drive the bow speakers from the 5th channel"

How? Its a low-pass only sub chnl. correct?

You are correct - my error.